PzIII Ausf J Winter 41/42

[maschinenkrueger]

I am starting a new PzIII project in between all my other MaK projects.

I want to model this vehicle. The lack of stowage and snow crusted tracks will make this an interesting project. I can't hind behind stowage and mud.

I have one problem. There are no visible unit markings. This photo is in a couple of different books but they only remark on the white wash and numbers. Does anyone have a clue? So far it has been suggested this was from the 1st, 2nd, 16th, and even Pz.Lehr. I'm also trying to figure out if the 634 is painted over traditional red/white stencil numbers or just painted onto the gray to make up for a smaller hull 634.



I might even use these guys

models-hobby.com/german-tank-crew-2-winter-1941-43-three-figures.html

[tobias5555]

That will be a cool one.

[TRM]

Hello Bryan,

Well, this in #2 for the post attempt...LOL!! I typed up some stuff and had to leave for a bit, came back and it was gone!! Oh well...sorry if I go on a bit here, a little too much time on my hands I guess! 

I had a couple minutes over coffee this morning and did some trolling. I found the picture you posted on a Russian site. The site seemed to be a Russian General's accounting of the counter offensive by the Russians between December 5th, 1941 and January 7th, 1942. There is a cation under the picture that reads:

" The average German tank Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J accompanies convoy. Tactical combat vehicle number "634". It can be seen that the tankers have special winter clothing and forced to serve in greatcoats and forage caps. Army Group "Center", 6th Tank Regiment of the 3rd Armored Division, December 1941 "

Translated site link: translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://coollib.net/b/220135/read&prev=search

Full blown Russian version:  coollib.net/b/220135/read

If the numbers are correct, a little digging by the fifth sip (pr cup...not sure really) of java, I learned VI Corps of the 3rd Pz. Group was attached to the Ninth Army as part of Army Group Center...Pheew!! Not sure what all this means other than the fact that it is quite possible this tank was located near Rzhev for the Battle of Moscow and subsequent counter offensive in Dec/Jan for that time period and/or present for the Rzhev Salient...which was a whole "other" thing that happened then! 



Up at the top of the inset image...

As for the coloring of the numbers...best guess is is Yellow with a Black outline. Out of the typical markings the only ones that stand out to me are the yellow/black and the black outline only. Looking at the light nature in the sun with what appears to be a dunklegelb finish, if the black outline only was there, the coloring of the number would probably be the same as the rest of the tank. To also highlight, the Balkenkreuz is white in the picture and the light grey coloring in the number suggests a light color...probably yellow. Red would probably be plain or have a white outline...which the picture shows a darker coloring which suggests black ...in my opinion!

Since coming back from my appointment this morning...and having some time on my hands! And of course having a little fun playing around. I looked closer picture about the tactical markings. In the lower bottom left corner of the rear plate, it almost looks like a tactical marking showing through.




Not sure if it is any clearer inverted but it does show the outline.



I can't quite make out the symbol at the top of the square armor symbol though.  There are a number of little pictographs that could be placed there as you know...



A great shot of the adhoc whitewash of another Pz. III....if for nothign else...good reference!



Well, if nothing else, it was a little fun clicking about!!    Again, sorry for going on there for a bit.  I am in no way an expert but I do know how to click...LOL!!    Hope some of this might be of help to you...or at least spart another to come forward and give forth some information!! Good luck on the build!!

[406 Silverado]

Been a while since I built the Pz III. Will be nice to see this one built.

[maschinenkrueger]

Why do I always pick the tough ones? And, where were you when I needed research for my thesis. ;-) Thanks for the info.

You are the second to suggest Moscow area of operations so we're getting close. I will need to research more but yellow/black seems to be a rare use and could ID a specific unit prone to using that style. I agree there is something dark around the 635, the "3" especially. If yellow/black is rare, then possibly solid red numbers with a thin application of white will look like gray. If I recall properly, reds tend to shift darker in B/W photos. At first I thought the bc was just the white outline but now I believe it is filled in with black which leads me to believe this is panzer gray base. There could be some argument that there looks like green splotches applied to the rear armor plate but I think this is just frost and dust.

[TRM]

All about the fun of finding out! Whatever the true color actually is, the eye candy value, for me anyway, is the hand painted number and not stencil. And after taking yet another look after your last post, I am liking the idea of red or even black outline by stencil cover with another field application over it. Would be original for sure!!

Have fun!!

[elco]

Great subject, black outline would be cool on a faded grey base mhhhh!

[maschinenkrueger]

Thanks Rob. Need to order the AM

Thanks again TRM

Elco - Would just a black outline ever be used on a panzer gray base? I don't think there would be enough contrast at a distance.

[elco]

It looks like a black outline, in this case there is a faded whitewash underneath but the outline also can be red.. Interpertation of those BW pics is hard :0

But I can imagine that they only have black and white paint while they were ' on tour''.

When we were in Kosovo our maintanance guys made KFOR stencils and add them on our verhicles with white paint or out of a spraycan. Other verhicles had stickers later on . Just want to say that everything can be possible

[Leon]

This is going to be interesting Bryan.

[deafpanzer]

Count me in... it will be fun to follow. I am weak for anything with winter camo!

[maschinenkrueger]

You bring up an interesting idea Elco. That could be a VERY faded whitewash on the sides of the turret. If so, they would have painted solid Black or solid Red over the initial white wash. As the ww faded away and the red or black became difficult to read against the mostly dark gray, they could have painted over the numbers with white. Probably when they repainted the front. They either chose not to fully cover the tank a second time, or were short on supplies.

Here is a (my guess an Ausf F - I really don't know my early ones very well) with WW just on the front

[wbill76]

I would say with near certainty that this is a Pz Gray base vehicle with scruffy/partial whitewash along with snow/frost accumulation in various areas. Just look at the relatively 'clean' area of the air deflector/exhaust/lower hull on the rear deck to confirm that. If the timeframe of winter 1941/42 is correct for this vehicle, that explains a lot (including the partial whitewash applied to the cupola and the turret mantlet only vs. over the whole vehicle). Have to remember that at this point in time the German forces were short of everything winter-gear related including whitewash. All the various features mark it as an early production J, so that corresponds with the 1941/42 timeframe as well (no armored cooling openings in the rear deck for example). As for the turret numbers, that's anyone's guess as I suppose...but I would lean towards either white or yellow with a black outline...especially since it doesn't appear to have had any whitewash applied to the turret sides vs. the turret front/cupola. The crew's uniforms also help establish a 'baseline' for black tones in the photo for what that's worth. Angle and lighting relative to the camera's position (evidenced by the shadow of the vehicle) are also having an effect, but it would appear the vehicle has a light dusting of snow on it that's helping to mute some of the colors.

All-in-all, a very interesting subject for sure, looking forward to seeing you work your magic on it Bryan!

[maschinenkrueger]

Hmmm would you then think the balkencruz is empty or just faded?

TRM's PzIII photo is very interesting as a very early J with no spare tracks nor spare road wheels. Seems a little optimistic. The 634 has tracks on the roof, so maybe there are a few on the front plate and nose. I guess it's ladies choice.

Thanks for all your educated replies, I've been getting some pretty eye-rolling responses on FB.

BTW - Thanks for your review on this kit Bill. Rather helpful.

[Tojo72]

Looking forward to your project.

[wbill76]

Jan 6, 2015 16:57:44 GMT -5 maschinenkrueger said:

Hmmm would you then think the balkencruz is empty or just faded?

TRM's PzIII photo is very interesting as a very early J with no spare tracks nor spare road wheels. Seems a little optimistic. The 634 has tracks on the roof, so maybe there are a few on the front plate and nose. I guess it's ladies choice.

Thanks for all your educated replies, I've been getting some pretty eye-rolling responses on FB.

BTW - Thanks for your review on this kit Bill. Rather helpful.

Balkenkreuz looks like the standard white on pz gray outline from everything I can tell. You could be right about added tracks on the hull front/nose...field crews were notoriously ingenious about adding these whenever they could for that little bit of added protection. Glad the kit review was helpful as well!

[maschinenkrueger]

Usually I wait until the very last to work on the tracks, but this time I assembled the them before any plastic was ever cut.



I'm using the Aber PE set for the PzIII ausf J/L. Nice set but a lot of it won't be used for this early model. The brass is thicker than similar Voyager sets I'm use to. I had to anneal the brass exhaust deflectors before they would distress easily. Looks like I need to go back and tweak the left corner a little more. 

[Leon]

Nice work on the tracks and PE Bryan.

[TRM]

Always a good show getting the shoes together!! Well done!! Things look to be heading in the right direction!!

[richardcraig]

Very interesting project... It's not easy trying to figure out the color of the numbers I was thinking yellow with a black outline ,but then why would they add yellow to the inside of the 4...? When you compare the color to the white on the Balkenkreuz, it doesn't look to be white but at the same time if it is just worn whitewash that has faded..
I still think yellow but that 4 has me wondering...
I love the PzIII and I'll be following this one closely..

[bullardino]

Interesting projet, I will follow.

[Deleted]

Hello, I found a picture of the front and other side of the turret It is in Panzer colors 1 on page 21 wrongly marked as an ausf G. No visible markings on the front either. Look at your messages tomorrow.

Eddy

[maschinenkrueger]

OHMYGAWDTHANKYOUSOMUCH!

[DeafStuG]

Looking good.

[406 Silverado]

Off to a very good start. Always good when the wheels and tracks are out of the way.

[maschinenkrueger]

Eddy was extremly helpful when he pointed out there is a second image of this particular tank in Panzer Colors V1. It's incorrectly labeled as an Ausf G. The image in PC is kinda small and faded. Here it is enlarged and brightened a little. Some nice features are present. Spare tracks on the upper bow but not lower half. Spare tracks between the MG and driver's visor. And for some extra character, a missing fender section and missing bow head lights. Still no clear answer on the 634 color, but I detect a small piece of 6 on the stowage box.

Why do you suppose those roadside birch tress are all trimmed at this height?

[wbill76]

Height of the trees is an easy one...ad-hoc road markers and snow depth indicators for the driver's to use as a reference and prevent going off the 'deep end' (literally!) of the road edge. Nice find and definitely confirms at as a J with that front hull view. That crewman in the turret certainly looks way too happy for a winter scene though.

[maschinenkrueger]

Interesting. Thanks.

[maschinenkrueger]

Yeah, I know. I need help. 9 are from the Aber PzIII set and a stray one is from the Alliance Model Works set. The AMW looks like a neglected office plant next to the others. The thicker brass on the Aber set was easier for me to work with. It would be nice to say that these were the hardest part of the set, but oh no! That's for later.



PS - Normally I don't ask these kinds of things, but has anyone ever have slow issues with Roll Models?

[maschinenkrueger]

So these parts keep getting attached to my model. Aber hinges and Voyager bin latches. These have to be some of the smallest parts I have ever assembled.