1/72 SdKfz 222/223 and SdKfz 231/232 (8 Rad) - some advice

[adt70hk]

Evening all!

Firstly apologies to the mods as I'm sure this question is in the wrong place but I couldn't work out where else to put it. 

In the interests of making the late war battles my son and I have more interesting and varied and also improving my skills (), I'm going to introduce some recon units for both the British and German forces.

The British are easy as I'll be building some Stuarts - both turreted and jalopied versions and I know what I need.

However I need some advice on the kits for the German side.

For reasons I won't bore you with my Germans are marked as 9th SS Panzer Division and I know from my research (here and here) that in terms of AFVs they'd have used light (222/223) and heavy (231/232 8 Rad) armoured cars and 'light' (250) and 'heavy' (251) halftracks, both in theory and certainly in practice at Arnhem.

I'm going to go with the armoured cars for our battles for variation and a new challenge, as I already have 4 SdKfz 251 variants and 250's are just still halftracks.

I see both Dragon and ICM do kits for the 222s, both of which look pretty straightforward.

I also found out that Dragon do a 231 although it looks pretty complicated (certainly too much for my son).  However, I've just come across some by a company called Roden, who I've never heard of, that look pretty straightforward.

Has anybody got any advice on the relative merit of the above kits or got any alternatives that are worth looking at?

Thanks as always for any assistance you can offer.

Kind regards

Andrew

[wbill76]

Roden kits can require a good bit of TLC in general, so just be aware of that. They are buildable but they won't fall together by a long shot.

[adt70hk]

Nov 21, 2015 20:18:03 GMT -5 wbill76 said:

Roden kits can require a good bit of TLC in general, so just be aware of that. They are buildable but they won't fall together by a long shot.

Bill

Thanks for taking the time to respond and your advice.

I popped across to your site and see you made a 222 earlier this year, which I have to say looks absolutely fantastic.  I'm obviously not going to get that level of detail in 1/72 but it will serve as an inspiration.

Thanks again.

Andrew

PS I do like the size of your stash!!! VERY impressive!!!!

[vindicareassassin]

As Bill says, Roden are just above ACE in their ease of construction, and really lend themselves to the static stuff I build rather than for gaming, not 'hardy' enough in my opinion, but.....

Don't discount Airfix from your list.

These are two Airfix 1/76 scale 222s that I made earlier this year, one is converted to a 260.

The figures are Zvesda 1/72 Recce set Germans.

Would you now if I didn't tell you they were different scales??








Here is a WIP shot to show the amount of work it takes to get the kits to that finish....





The kits as they come out the box are easy enough, if a little simplified, and a reasonable representation..... and you get a Kubelwagon too..... Not to be discounted for you games army either, everything you see a US Jeep fitted out for, so was the Kubel..... I'm thinking stretcher transporters 

[Deano]

Roden kits are good in general although I have not built any of the early versions . The 234 series are nice and as it is a gaming model you are after then they should fit the bill . The Dragon kits are far superior but you will get 2 Roden kits to the price of the Dragon kit . All in all you cant go wrong mate

[adt70hk]

Nov 22, 2015 4:44:14 GMT -5 vindicareassassin said:

As Bill says, Roden are just above ACE in their ease of construction, and really lend themselves to the static stuff I build rather than for gaming, not 'hardy' enough in my opinion, but.....

Don't discount Airfix from your list.

These are two Airfix 1/76 scale 222s that I made earlier this year, one is converted to a 260.

The figures are Zvesda 1/72 Recce set Germans.

Would you now if I didn't tell you they were different scales??

Here is a WIP shot to show the amount of work it takes to get the kits to that finish....
The kits as they come out the box are easy enough, if a little simplified, and a reasonable representation..... and you get a Kubelwagon too..... Not to be discounted for you games army either, everything you see a US Jeep fitted out for, so was the Kubel..... I'm thinking stretcher transporters 

Hi Sean

Thanks - yet again!

They don't look too bad do they??  I actually made one 30+years ago, I seem to recall it came with a mini diorama of a wrecked north African house...

How does it compare next to the 1/72 stuff you've made e.g. the PSC stuff I've seen you do?

The 1/76 Airfix Pz IV F1/F2 looks decidedly small next to an Armourfast Pz IV G but I guess an armoured car next to a tank wouldn't be comparing like with like.

Cheers.

Andrew

[adt70hk]

Nov 22, 2015 4:49:25 GMT -5 Deano said:

Roden kits are good in general although I have not built any of the early versions . The 234 series are nice and as it is a gaming model you are after then they should fit the bill . The Dragon kits are far superior but you will get 2 Roden kits to the price of the Dragon kit . All in all you cant go wrong mate

Deano

Thank you too for the advice.

I'm in the middle of drawing up my Christmas present wish list - all modelling stuff - so it's been helpful in filling it out a bit.

Cheers

Andrew

[vindicareassassin]

Nov 22, 2015 13:05:54 GMT -5 adt70hk said:

Nov 22, 2015 4:44:14 GMT -5 vindicareassassin said:

As Bill says, Roden are just above ACE in their ease of construction, and really lend themselves to the static stuff I build rather than for gaming, not 'hardy' enough in my opinion, but.....

Don't discount Airfix from your list.

These are two Airfix 1/76 scale 222s that I made earlier this year, one is converted to a 260.

The figures are Zvesda 1/72 Recce set Germans.

Would you now if I didn't tell you they were different scales??

Here is a WIP shot to show the amount of work it takes to get the kits to that finish....
The kits as they come out the box are easy enough, if a little simplified, and a reasonable representation..... and you get a Kubelwagon too..... Not to be discounted for you games army either, everything you see a US Jeep fitted out for, so was the Kubel..... I'm thinking stretcher transporters 

Hi Sean

Thanks - yet again!

They don't look too bad do they??  I actually made one 30+years ago, I seem to recall it came with a mini diorama of a wrecked north African house...

How does it compare next to the 1/72 stuff you've made e.g. the PSC stuff I've seen you do?

The 1/76 Airfix Pz IV F1/F2 looks decidedly small next to an Armourfast Pz IV G but I guess an armoured car next to a tank wouldn't be comparing like with like.

Cheers.

Andrew

The set with the base I believe was the Matchbox version, but I'm going back 30+ years trying to remember myself 

Not really that noticeable scalewise because, as you say, its not like for like.


When I used to play at this scale I had a mix of 1/72 and 1/76 scales, but what I did was buy several vehicles that were the same make/model and make sure they were in the same scale, but then I used to use a lot of Airfix stuff as it was easy to get hold of and cheap enough to buy a couple at a time, plus not that complicated to throw together reasonably quickly and have something good enough to game with.

While we're on about scales, stick clear of Valiant figures unless your equipping an entire unit with them, compared to PSC and Airfix they are massive..... See...... Left to Right..... Airfix 1/76, PSC 1/72, Valiant 1/72....




The Valiant figure I estimate would be about 6'6" or more compared to the other two..... an army of giants, no?? 

I suppose it depends on what system/rules you play.... as you can see those are all based up as single figures for the rules I used to play, I also played a couple of games using the Flames of War system and 5 of those valiant figures on a squad base got really crowded, really quick   needless to say after those few games I cut them all off and fitted them back onto pennies.

[adt70hk]

Nov 22, 2015 14:13:15 GMT -5 vindicareassassin said:

The set with the base I believe was the Matchbox version, but I'm going back 30+ years trying to remember myself 

Not really that noticeable scalewise because, as you say, its not like for like.

When I used to play at this scale I had a mix of 1/72 and 1/76 scales, but what I did was buy several vehicles that were the same make/model and make sure they were in the same scale, but then I used to use a lot of Airfix stuff as it was easy to get hold of and cheap enough to buy a couple at a time, plus not that complicated to throw together reasonably quickly and have something good enough to game with.

While we're on about scales, stick clear of Valiant figures unless your equipping an entire unit with them, compared to PSC and Airfix they are massive..... See...... Left to Right..... Airfix 1/76, PSC 1/72, Valiant 1/72....

The Valiant figure I estimate would be about 6'6" or more compared to the other two..... an army of giants, no?? 

I suppose it depends on what system/rules you play.... as you can see those are all based up as single figures for the rules I used to play, I also played a couple of games using the Flames of War system and 5 of those valiant figures on a squad base got really crowded, really quick   needless to say after those few games I cut them all off and fitted them back onto pennies.

Sean

Yes I think you're right it m ight well have been Matchbox...but as you say it was over 30 years ago (although I am absolutely sure I picked it up at the RAF Museum in Hendon).

I'd already been warned about Valiant figures by modellers on the Armourfast Forum and I've also read several reviews on the Plastic Soldier Review site.

As for our 'rules' Armourfast came up with a VERY simplified set that was designed to work with their models and meant you could get a battle finished in well under an hour and so were perfect for my son.  However they had no infantry or artillery rules so I made up some of my own and I have also just started to use the key basics from an old set of War Games Research Group rules I have left over from my 'youf' - no moral or order testing - you just move and shoot - simples....

One last question and then I'll leave you alone for a bit...I take it the Kubel Wagon came with a crew??

Thanks

Andrew

[vindicareassassin]

Yes, a seated driver and officer, plus 3 others in the set, one looking through binos and 2 stood holding machine pistols in exactly the same pose!?

[wbill76]

Nov 22, 2015 3:15:51 GMT -5 adt70hk said:

Nov 21, 2015 20:18:03 GMT -5 wbill76 said:

Roden kits can require a good bit of TLC in general, so just be aware of that. They are buildable but they won't fall together by a long shot.

Bill

Thanks for taking the time to respond and your advice.

I popped across to your site and see you made a 222 earlier this year, which I have to say looks absolutely fantastic.  I'm obviously not going to get that level of detail in 1/72 but it will serve as an inspiration.

Thanks again.

Andrew

PS I do like the size of your stash!!! VERY impressive!!!!

Thanks Andrew! The 1/35 222 project was a fun one and probably the most involved, detail-wise, that I've done in recent memory not counting the current USS Texas project.

[adt70hk]

Nov 22, 2015 4:44:14 GMT -5 vindicareassassin said:

As Bill says, Roden are just above ACE in their ease of construction, and really lend themselves to the static stuff I build rather than for gaming, not 'hardy' enough in my opinion, but.....

Don't discount Airfix from your list.

These are two Airfix 1/76 scale 222s that I made earlier this year, one is converted to a 260.

The figures are Zvesda 1/72 Recce set Germans.

Would you now if I didn't tell you they were different scales??

Here is a WIP shot to show the amount of work it takes to get the kits to that finish....





The kits as they come out the box are easy enough, if a little simplified, and a reasonable representation..... and you get a Kubelwagon too..... Not to be discounted for you games army either, everything you see a US Jeep fitted out for, so was the Kubel..... I'm thinking stretcher transporters 

Sean

I'm guessing you made the spades yourself from green stuff and plastic rods and they were pretty straightforward??

Do you know of any firms that sell plastic 1/72 tools for kits?  I couldn't find any but I might have a go at doing my own if it's easy enough....

Thanks.

Andrew

[vindicareassassin]

Thats the more complicated way of doing it, the slightly easier way is to use a small rectangle or heart shaped piece of plastic card as the shovel head and plastic rod as its handle, just leaning the head on the end of the rod to give the head the impression of being at an angle.

Alternatively, invest in Airfixs' outpost set, you get several shovels, picks, barrels, barbed wire rolls, etc in the set.... Not to mention a nice little house for some scenery. These are normally slightly over scale anyway because they are so small and delicate so are good for both 72 & 76 scales.

[adt70hk]

Dec 10, 2015 2:12:07 GMT -5 vindicareassassin said:

Thats the more complicated way of doing it, the slightly easier way is to use a small rectangle or heart shaped piece of plastic card as the shovel head and plastic rod as its handle, just leaning the head on the end of the rod to give the head the impression of being at an angle.

An amazingly simple and excellent idea!!  That's why your models looks as great as they do and mine don't!! (Yet....)