222 /223 armored cars

[sturmbird]

Exactly what is the difference between these two German armored cars? I have a project in the back of my head, and have several 222's, but only one 223.
gary

[joelsmith]

I don't have access to my library, but, IIRC the 222 was armed with the 20mm and the mg34, and the 223 only had the mg34.

[Tobi]

Both being developments from the 221, speaking of external features a 222 houses a 2cm KwK38 in a six sided turret (the same that was later used for the 250/9), whereas the 223 only has a MG34 for armament. Instead the 223 carries a large frame antenna for medium range radio FuG10 that could be lowered and raised. One could say a 223 is a 221 plus radio equipment and an additional third crew member.

Externally similar versions are the 260/261, which both carried radios like the 223, but where unarmed. These were therefore called Panzerfunkwaegen, whereas the 221/222/223 on the other hand were distinguished as Panzerspaehwaegen.

[sturmbird]

Apr 10, 2017 15:00:26 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Both being developments from the 221, speaking of external features a 222 houses a 2cm KwK38 in a six sided turret (the same that was later used for the 250/9), whereas the 223 only has a MG34 for armament. Instead the 223 carries a large frame antenna for medium range radio FuG10 that could be lowered and raised. One could say a 223 is a 221 plus radio equipment and an additional third crew member.

Externally similar versions are the 260/261, which both carried radios like the 223, but where unarmed. These were therefore called Panzerfunkwaegen, whereas the 221/222/223 on the other hand were distinguished as Panzerspaehwaegen.

Looking at the Hobby Boss kit, I can see building a 260 with minimal work on the exterior. I did a little research on the 260 (no idea about the 261), and most I saw photos of didn't have the big antenna mounted at the rear of the hull. Yet I did see a couple using an external telescoping post that had the star antenna. No idea what the insides looked like, but am sure there's a photo or two out there. By the way the antenna mast looks identical to the ones used with the radio trucks in north Africa.
gary

[Tobi]

The 260 carried medium range radio equipment with rod antenna for aircraft communication, the task of the 261 was long range communication between ground units with a frame antenna and later also a rod antenna. However, it did not carry a "Kurbelmastantenne" like could be found on the radio trucks you mentioned or some versions of the 251/6 and a quick Google search did not show such a vehicle apart from a 1/72 Dragon model with a simple telescopic mast. Could you please post a picture? Maybe you have confused a Kurbelmast with the telescopic extension of a star antenna like on a Befehlspanzer.

[panzerjager2]

Awesome research report Tobi, I think you nailed the differences. Please accept this compliment....I've been studying german Armor for 40 years now, and I couldn't have laid it out better. 
PJ2

[Tobi]

Thank you, sir!

[sturmbird]

Apr 11, 2017 0:02:36 GMT -5 Tobi said:

The 260 carried medium range radio equipment with rod antenna for aircraft communication, the task of the 261 was long range communication between ground units with a frame antenna and later also a rod antenna. However, it did not carry a "Kurbelmastantenne" like could be found on the radio trucks you mentioned or some versions of the 251/6 and a quick Google search did not show such a vehicle apart from a 1/72 Dragon model with a simple telescopic mast. Could you please post a picture? Maybe you have confused a Kurbelmast with the telescopic extension of a star antenna like on a Befehlspanzer.

with your description, I probably have the two masts confused. Drawings show the rear hull mounted antenna, while the other is different. Externally the 260 and the 261 seem to look similar on the outside.

I did notice last night that the mesh cage atop the hull is shaped different from the 222/223 armored cars. I need to figure out a way to make the mesh, or find a source. Would ruin my day having to drill a gazillion holes in the cage.

gary

[sturmbird]

Apr 11, 2017 7:20:05 GMT -5 panzerjager2 said:

Awesome research report Tobi, I think you nailed the differences. Please accept this compliment....I've been studying german Armor for 40 years now, and I couldn't have laid it out better. 
PJ2

you'd have thought that Dragon or Hobby Boss would have done the 260 / 261 by now! Need to find a good book on German armored cars. I have one for the eight wheeled stuff, but nothing for the four wheeled cars.

gary

[Tobi]

I did also some research. The Kurbelmast KM9 and KM8. The number indicates the height in meters. Smaller KM8 was used for example on the Kfz.17





A Steckmast (similar to what can be seen in the 1/72 Dragon Sd.Kfz.261. The 260/261 carried four 1.25m elements):




A star antenna "D" on a Befehlspanzer with extension rods (the picture is not lucky, from 1944 on these were 5x 0.7 meter elements with butterfly nut clamps, called "Verlaengerungsstab":

[Tobi]

Apr 11, 2017 14:05:29 GMT -5 sturmbird said:

Apr 11, 2017 7:20:05 GMT -5 panzerjager2 said:

Awesome research report Tobi, I think you nailed the differences. Please accept this compliment....I've been studying german Armor for 40 years now, and I couldn't have laid it out better. 
PJ2

you'd have thought that Dragon or Hobby Boss would have done the 260 / 261 by now! Need to find a good book on German armored cars. I have one for the eight wheeled stuff, but nothing for the four wheeled cars.

gary

Try to get Panzer Tracts 13-1.
Dragon so far totally neglected everything on the Type 801 chassis in 1/35.
You get either HB or Tristar, or the very old Tamiya kits.

[panzerjager2]

AWESOME RESEARCH..... 
PJ2

[sturmbird]

I find that most 260's are seen with an extruded metal cage ontop the hull (a gazillion small holes), but now have found a couple with the standard wire mesh cage. There's also a box placed on top the rear hull on many. Still cannot find any useful interior pictures.

gary

[Tobi]

Apr 12, 2017 12:55:43 GMT -5 sturmbird said:

I find that most 260's are seen with an extruded metal cage ontop the hull (a gazillion small holes), but now have found a couple with the standard wire mesh cage. There's also a box placed on top the rear hull on many. Still cannot find any useful interior pictures.

gary

No interior pics in the Panzer Tracts issue as well, and they must be considered a premium source.

As the 260 had a crew of four I see not much choice about the arrangement of the passenger seats and for the radio installation I would stick to the 223. 

From which base did you start? A 222 has larger engine access hatches and the right vision port is too far to the rear, a late 223 would be a better basis for this modification.

[sturmbird]

Apr 12, 2017 14:11:53 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 12, 2017 12:55:43 GMT -5 sturmbird said:

I find that most 260's are seen with an extruded metal cage ontop the hull (a gazillion small holes), but now have found a couple with the standard wire mesh cage. There's also a box placed on top the rear hull on many. Still cannot find any useful interior pictures.

gary

No interior pics in the Panzer Tracts issue as well, and they must be considered a premium source.

As the 260 had a crew of four I see not much choice about the arrangement of the passenger seats and for the radio installation I would stick to the 223. 

From which base did you start? A 222 has larger engine access hatches and the right vision port is too far to the rear, a late 223 would be a better basis for this modification.

have not started yet. I'll have to hunt up a 223, as I only have one kit. I don't think Hobby Boss did one, as I've never seen one. Took a good look at the Dragon 1/72 scale 260 awhile ago, and I see some problems. Their idea of the cage looks nothing like the photos. I think the old Tristar might be the best start.
gary

[Tobi]

Apr 12, 2017 23:25:48 GMT -5 sturmbird said:

Apr 12, 2017 14:11:53 GMT -5 Tobi said:

No interior pics in the Panzer Tracts issue as well, and they must be considered a premium source.

As the 260 had a crew of four I see not much choice about the arrangement of the passenger seats and for the radio installation I would stick to the 223. 

From which base did you start? A 222 has larger engine access hatches and the right vision port is too far to the rear, a late 223 would be a better basis for this modification.

have not started yet. I'll have to hunt up a 223, as I only have one kit. I don't think Hobby Boss did one, as I've never seen one. Took a good look at the Dragon 1/72 scale 260 awhile ago, and I see some problems. Their idea of the cage looks nothing like the photos. I think the old Tristar might be the best start.
gary

Hobby Boss did two 223 kits, #82443 and #83817, but the latter is a 1st production batch version, so #82443 might be the best choice.

[sturmbird]

Apr 13, 2017 1:18:08 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 12, 2017 23:25:48 GMT -5 sturmbird said:

have not started yet. I'll have to hunt up a 223, as I only have one kit. I don't think Hobby Boss did one, as I've never seen one. Took a good look at the Dragon 1/72 scale 260 awhile ago, and I see some problems. Their idea of the cage looks nothing like the photos. I think the old Tristar might be the best start.
gary

Hobby Boss did two 223 kits, #82443 and #83817, but the latter is a 1st production batch version, so #82443 might be the best choice.

I'll order one tonight
gary

[sturmbird]

finally got the Hobby Boss 223 late kit in today, so the plan has a start! Now to figure out the cage on top.

gary

[panzerjager2]

I'll be stopping by to see how this pan's out..... 
PJ2

[sturmbird]

May 20, 2017 22:50:25 GMT -5 panzerjager2 said:

I'll be stopping by to see how this pan's out..... 
PJ2

The cage ontop is different from the 221/222/223 armored cars. Radios are probably similar to what's used in other command vehicles. Otherwise it's similar to the others. May use some artistic license inside.
gary

[panzerjager2]

As an adjunct to that...you MAY find that Chamberlain's book on German Armour has some info on the fu's used in various armored cars. You might also PM Tobi, he seems to have a very solid grasp on this material, where even I have to fall back on research to make a "best guess".. 
PJ2