Panzer III early J Kwk 39 L60?

[steveh]

Hi

Has anyone ever seen a Pz III J with the KwK39 5cm L60 barrel fitted and still having a "J" layout on the tracks guards for equipment?

I have searched everywhere, I have found one, but the reference is a late "J" with the turret vision ports filled,
Not an early "J" simply up gunned to the L60.

My references do indicate the early "J"s were up gunned but I can not find any photographic evidence to confirm this!

Thank you for your help, well in advance

regards

Steve H

[panzerjager2]

I am not totally sure what info you are looking for..... It's probably me, and the "sent versus received" concept.......

Is this what you are looking for? 




PJ2

[wbill76]

Jun 27, 2018 0:23:36 GMT -5 steveh said:

Hi

Has anyone ever seen a Pz III J with the KwK39 5cm L60 barrel fitted and still having a "J" layout on the tracks guards for equipment?

I have searched everywhere, I have found one, but the reference is a late "J" with the turret vision ports filled,
Not an early "J" simply up gunned to the L60.

My references do indicate the early "J"s were up gunned but I can not find any photographic evidence to confirm this!

Thank you for your help, well in advance

regards

Steve H

You've entered the curious world of the Pz III J/L and the insatiable desire of modelers to classify things into neat buckets like "early, mid, late"! The reality is that it was standard practice for the Germans to upgrade/repair any vehicles that were sent back to the depots or factories to the latest standard whenever possible (including gun changes like the L60), so what your references are speaking about likely refer to that vs. a wholesale overhaul of all all "early" Js being systematically up-gunned as a planned effort. The L designation was done retroactively by the Germans to help distinguish the differences between the vehicles for maintenance/parts designations and not as a true production variant difference in the normal sense. This makes it harder when you go searching for stuff online or in reference material as the lines aren't as clear-cut as a result in terms of defining what is really a J vs L beyond just the 5.0cm gun.

[sturmbird]

Think that drawing is a Pz.Kw.IIIK. Most used the 50mm L60 gun, but a few were built with the 7.5cm cannon. Never saw a J or L with a muzzle brake. Even then the one in the drawing is using the 75mm style brake.
gary

[bbrowniii]

Jun 27, 2018 0:23:36 GMT -5 steveh said:

Hi

Has anyone ever seen a Pz III J with the KwK39 5cm L60 barrel fitted and still having a "J" layout on the tracks guards for equipment?

I have searched everywhere, I have found one, but the reference is a late "J" with the turret vision ports filled,
Not an early "J" simply up gunned to the L60.

My references do indicate the early "J"s were up gunned but I can not find any photographic evidence to confirm this!

Thank you for your help, well in advance

regards

Steve H

Steve

What are your references? If you are confident enough in them, just because there are not pictures, I wouldn't let that stop you from building one. If people ask you about it, just refer them to your source.

[Tobi]

I cannot provide you a photo, I'm afraid, and it's a tricky topic, because there was a transition period from December '41 to March '42, where L/42 and L/60 were produced side by side.
As I already told Whitney during his Pz.III scratch build my references on the III are surprisingly thin. Don't know why that is, at least I own the literature by Spielberger and Jentz and the very useful "Achtung Panzer" series.

According to Jentz the earliest confirmed III with the new equipment layout (I refer to the introduction of the two spare wheels) was Fgst.Nr.72863 completed by MIAG in 11/41. The upgunning of the "J" to the L/60 started with chassis 72001, beginning in 12/41(!). All these "J" were later renamed to "L", even if the chassis plate continued to name it a "J". The designation of versions was not always very stringent in German tank production and I vividly remember a discussion with some guy (to put it friendly) at another forum, who seriously tried to convince me that only a Panther with a cast cupola and a ball-mount MG in the front plate was a Panther "A" and the rest were mere prototypes! When I explained to him what the manufacturer MAN thought which features qualified a Panther being an "A" version and that his definition would mean a lot of prototypes, he became insulting and I dropped the conversation, but I wander from the subject.

Now don't let yourself get mislead by the sequence of the chassis numbers. There were many plants building the III and they were assigned different blocks of numbers. Thus a 72001 (assigned to Daimler Benz) could have been produced later than a 72863 and I think it's the case here. Jentz has two pictures, one by MAN from 12/41 reading "one of the first... at MAN with L/60" and below a picture from MIAG with similar capture, also dated 12/41. In both cases the spare wheels on the track fenders are present.
Also the design example demonstrated to Hitler pictured in the Spielberger book, still sporting a muzzle brake, already had this layout.
So, technically speaking, I would say no, such a vehicle as you seek it did not run off the factory lines.

BUT, I have to second Bill, there are without doubt numerous cases in which vehicles were turned in for retrofits in the homeland or for repairs in field workshops, so in theory such a layout could have existed. Now it's up to you, go by imagination without picture, postpone the project until you find a picture, or stick to production records.

[steveh]

Morning chaps

Thanks for the input, I do have the same reference books, Tobi and it is a sound point.

You and Bill are right too, there may have been one, just because it wasn't photographed, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

The CAD drawing of the Pz III L60 with the muzzle break is a concept from the installation of the Pak 38 into the Pz III to combat the T34.

I did track down a PDF of Panzer Tracts 3-3 and it is a real mix up during the mid production with the introduction of the L60, change of track guard tool layout, addition of Vor armour plate, introduction of spare wheels due to increased damage by mines, and then they were re-designated to the Ausf L.

I shall stick with the L42 and build an early DAK, for my Dunkelgelb paint experiment

Thanks for the input, it is much appreciated.

Best regards

Steve H

[panzerjager2]

Tobi, you sir are a OUTSTANDING  researcher... KUDOS one again 

[Tobi]

You are too kind, but I'm the just the lucky one who can pick out from his bookshelf the information which others brought together during years and years of exhausting research.

As an engineer saying goes: "You don't need to know everything, you just need to know whom to ask or where to look it up!"

[wbill76]

Jul 2, 2018 4:58:56 GMT -5 Tobi said:

You are too kind, but I'm the just the lucky one who can pick out from his bookshelf the information which others brought together during years and years of exhausting research.

As an engineer saying goes: "You don't need to know everything, you just need to know whom to ask or where to look it up!"

Very true! My reference shelf is overflowing these days...sometimes I have to remember which book has what info!

[steveh]

Well said gentlemen,

I would only add, the skill to interpret all the information too.

It is much appreciated even if I can't just pop an L 60 barrel in, that will be for another Pz III L

Regards

Steve H

[Tobi]

Jul 2, 2018 11:47:16 GMT -5 wbill76 said:

Jul 2, 2018 4:58:56 GMT -5 Tobi said:

You are too kind, but I'm the just the lucky one who can pick out from his bookshelf the information which others brought together during years and years of exhausting research.

As an engineer saying goes: "You don't need to know everything, you just need to know whom to ask or where to look it up!"

Very true! My reference shelf is overflowing these days...sometimes I have to remember which book has what info!

LOL!

I have a hard time to remember which books I actually own!

I'm planning an inventory on my hard drive, especially for magazine articles.