Dragon Panther II - completed 8/16

[afvfan]

Here's a rendition of Dragon's old Panther II kit (#6027). It's not an overly accurate kit, but sadly, it's the only game in town if you want one of these. I've finished it in the late war 3 color scheme.

As usual, comments, both good and constructive, are always welcome.

[dupes]

I like it a lot!

What sort of stuff is wrong with the kit? I've never researched this one.

[afvfan]

Aug 16, 2014 22:05:58 GMT -5 dupes said:

I like it a lot!

What sort of stuff is wrong with the kit? I've never researched this one.

Thanks Dupes.

Here's a old thread I found discussing this thing. It's a shame Dragon didn't use the captured original hull to design their molds from. That, at least, would have limited the problem areas to the turret.

www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=109785&page=1

[elco]

Wrong specs or not you did a nice job on the camo and weathering

[dupes]

Hah...I read the offshoot article from Missing Lynx - I will also be building mine out of the box!

[pantherf..-Email Not Valid]

A beautiful job on a totally all wrong subject.

Turret is wrong.
Gun is wrong.
Upper hull is wrong.
Exhaust is wrong.
The lower hull is close.
The wheels are correct but the spacing is a bit off.
No storage boxes on the rear.

But for an out of the box build, the paint, the weathering and such is outstanding.

I have all the material to build a correct Panther II coming up soon with the exception to the turret... I believe it was to be a completly different animal to the Panther F's Schmalturm.  Stay tuned. 










Jeff

[afvfan]

Elco - Thanks for the compliment. I pictured it as a fairly new vehicle fighting in an urban setting, so I kept the dirt and mud build up to a minimum.

Dupes - Don't blame you at all. Maybe someone will revisit this and release a proper version of it in the future.

I will offer this construction tip. If at all possible, do not glue the idler arm in place until you lay out the tracks. Unlike a normal vehicle, the tracks on this alternate between a regular link and a flat plate. This makes for an interesting time trying to get the track tension set correctly once the idler is glued in place. If you look closely you can see where I had to cut down some of the plates, as the tracks pass over the idler, to get them right.

[Deano]

Looks great , very well finished model ... I also built it OOB a very long time ago , fun build and yer not wrong about the tracks.... a very testing time! well done!

[afvfan]

Jeff - It does build up to a nice looking tank, even though it is a fantasy. TBH, I would have never touched the kit, but it's a commission build. For some reason, even after explaining the faults to the guy, he still wanted it.

Good luck on your conversion. That would be one I'd like to see.


Deano - Thanks for the comments. "...a very testing time...", now that's really a polite way to describe them!

[pantherf..-Email Not Valid]

Here's an idea of what it will take to make this right.  I'm no rivet counter and there's not fault to anyone building this but this is the right way for a true Panther II:

www.network54.com/Forum/110741/message/1160852042/Panzerkampfwagen+Panther+II%2C+Germany%2C+1945+-+Part+One+%96+Hull+Corrections

www.network54.com/Forum/110741/message/1160852131/Panzerkampfwagen+Panther+II%2C+Germany%2C+1945+-+Part+Three+%96+The+Turret

www.network54.com/Forum/110741/message/1160852253/Panzerkampfwagen+Panther+II%2C+Germany%2C+1945+-+%0D%0APart+Five+%96++Initial+Painting+and+Weathering


I will be following most of this but I want to use Real Models turret, because it is a far departure from what the actual Panther II was to have.  At least it won't be so close to what a Panther F looks like.


Now speaking of painting and weathering... your example is spot on and very nicely done! 










Jeff

[Tobi]

Nicely done!

I wasn't aware Dragon screwed up the hull, as there is one existing in the flesh, though that never carried any kind of turret.
This is the curse of their policies to depict everything with the same molds and sprues, where they would have needed to create something completely new for this subject... 

For the turret, we don't talk about that!  

Jeff, I believe you can't speak of a true Panther II, as the existing hull was only a prototype and is kinda outdated compared to the "G" and "F" hull. For example take the driver and radio operator hatches! If a Panther II had ever went into production, I'm pretty sure it would have had those new features and not like in the build in your links.

[pantherf..-Email Not Valid]

You ARE aware that the Panther II was designed in 1943 and would have eliminated the need for the G and eventually the F model and would have cancelled all Panther tanks before it?  The idea was to standardize production by using like materials and parts of that of the Tiger B (King Tiger) to simplify costs.






Jeff

[mrt51]

Well it looks good anyway.

Terry

[Tobi]

Yes, I'm aware of that. Nevertheless, the "G" and "F" were based also partly on knowledge won from that very prototype hull. Just because that hull had certain features of a Panther "A", you can't conclude these would have been the same in a series production. Fact is it was overtook by reality. There are also reasons why details were not kept the way they were for the later Panther variants. If not due to the course of the war and battle experiences, that's the normal dynamics of project progress and modified demands, I can tell you first hand.

The Panther II remains a paper project and no one can tell how it would have exactly looked like if developed further and what variants it would have produced. It's only guessing!

[afvfan]

Tobi and Terry - Appreciate the kind words.

To add my 2 cents into the mix, I'll say that it's hard to speculate what the final version would have looked like. I believe the hull would have been similar to the prototype with a few upgrades added in to reflect the passage of time in development. The Schurtzen rails would probably have been omitted, or at least redesigned, as the tracks stick out so far.
The big change would be in the turret. By 1945 any 75mm gun would have probably been considered obsolete on an MBT, opting for an 88MM instead. This would have rendered any of the usually seen small turret designs unusable. They also may have opted for a shorter barrel, depending on balance and weight distribution.
But, like I said, these is just my thoughts on it. Your opinions may vary.

[pantherf..-Email Not Valid]

That's true.  Opinions DO vary.  

And then there's the truth from the bible "Germany's Panther Tank" from Thomas L. Jentz.


Learn it, Love it and then Live it.    It was fun chattin' with you guys! 








Jeff

[wbill76]

You did an outstanding job on the paint and finish on this one Bob! Very nice work despite the kit's shortcomings in the accuracy department, can't blame you at all for tackling it as-is given just how far out the kit is vs. the 'real' deal.

[TRM]

Well done Bob! You did a fine job on the painting and weathering!! Good bad or otherwise, looks like you had some fun!!! What its all about!

[deafpanzer]

Beautiful cat!!! Really like the camo very much. Bought same kit two weeks ago...

[Tobi]

Aug 17, 2014 18:19:39 GMT -5 pantherf..-Email Not Valid said:

That's true.  Opinions DO vary.  

And then there's the truth from the bible "Germany's Panther Tank" from Thomas L. Jentz.


Learn it, Love it and then Live it.    It was fun chattin' with you guys! 








Jeff

Jeff, I know the work of Thomas Jentz pretty well and I own plenty of his literature myself. You are free to take this as the "truth" like you put it and I agree that it is solid work.

But I also know reality.

Regarding my background: I'm an engineer, working for eight out of my ten years now in the German defense industry. I have worked 4 years for M.A.N., you probably know that name, two of which in their military development. After changing companies I've been involved until now, and this will probably continue for some time in the future, together with Krauss-Maffei on various projects regarding chassis for them. My company also did projects of its own as a main contractor of vehicles for Bundeswehr and other armies in Europe.

During that time I saw and helped building a lot of prototypes, of which I can't tell you of course, both as a designer and a designer team leader. I came up with the weirdest makeshift designs for prototype parts, cut and welded together from something that was already existing, just to get the machines in running condition. Needless to say they had nothing to do with the planned series parts on my CAD-Screen.

More than once I've witnessed changes to specifications and requirements, be it due to testing results or new wishes from the customer. In "Defense" the client is very closely involved throughout the whole process and the time frame is always very short, a similar situation like back then.

You don't need to believe my words or take them into your consideration, I was just trying to give you a different point of view and help you scrutinize what has been already written, in books or on the internet. Enough of the chat, it was not my intention to capture this thread. 

[afvfan]

Bill - Appreciate the comments. As the discussion with Jeff and Tobi has brought out, there's a lot of opinions out there as to what the "real deal" actually would have been.

T - Thanks for the input. I do like the way it turned out.

Andy - Thanks for you, too, for the comment. Heed my earlier warning about the idler arms when you get around to building it. The track set up is very unforgiving.

Jeff and Tobi - No worries about the little side discussion going on. It's all on topic and hearing the various views are interesting. Maybe there ought to be a "Design a Panther II" build. It'd be fun to see the results.

[Tobi]

Agreed Bob, that would be interesting and fun.

A little like the "Führer" taking over design responsibility, like he occasionally used to do!

[deafpanzer]

My mistake... it was actually Panther F I bought last week!!! Cyber hobby white box. Hope it has less errors?

[afvfan]

Aug 18, 2014 11:10:02 GMT -5 deafpanzer said:

My mistake... it was actually Panther F I bought last week!!! Cyber hobby white box. Hope it has less errors?

You got me on that one Andy. I don't know a thing about that kit. It does have regular tracks, so that's a step in the right direction!

Maybe one of the Pantherphiles will chime in.

[TRM]

Well certainly options will vary, either based with factual proof through literature or practical hands on knowledge. I do know that there is always the possibility of anything coming to be given the right time and place! Nothing wrong with discussing possibilities one way or the other...of course as long as its civil...LOL!! Which it is!

The idea of a possible GB at some point would not be to bad either! I figure this could be a combined effort of E-tanks, prototypes and or significant field modifications....maybe even add the What-if in there to round it off!

Still think the Big Girls looks great Bob! Taking a closer look...maybe a light wash pin wash on the rear bins and jack...and you could lightly rub some of that Dark Steel you picked up at the show on the jack.

[Leon]

Great work on the not so accurate Panther Bob.Looks fantastic from where i'm sitting.

[Tojo72]

Old kit - new kit, accurate or not, it's a fine looking build for sure.

Sent from my SM-N900V using proboards

[afvfan]

Aug 18, 2014 16:40:00 GMT -5 TRM said:

.... Taking a closer look...maybe a light wash pin wash on the rear bins and jack...and you could lightly rub some of that Dark Steel you picked up at the show on the jack.

T - Now this is EXACTLY the kind of comment I was talking to you about at the show! I'd love to see a lot more just like it on all my builds. Take note people, constructive comments like this are always welcome. After all, it's how we get better! (big thumbs up!)

Believe it or not, there was a pin was on the bins. The effect was largely wiped out when I added the dust. Going to have to try a bit heavier wash before dusting. Good points about the jack, though. I totally missed those. I've already gone in and touched up the upper muffler black where the gray primer is peeking through and I want to go in and scuff up the clevis on the rear hitch to show a bit of use.

Your proposed build could be interesting. Hope I'm free enough to participate if it ever comes about.

----------------------------------

Leon - Appreciate the comment.

[TRM]

Well the GB can be put out far enough to gain interest and give some folks to get settled and be able to participate!

Dust can fade some effects pretty good...if you touch it up with a wash you may have to re-dust. But if the wash is a bit darker it can show through a bit more. Adding a little chipping to the clevis and possibly the tow shackles with a quick hit of the dark steel rubbed into the bottom loop would make them pop pretty good! A makeup applicator would work really well as would a cropped old small stiff bristled brush to get into the small areas. All else fails, grab a sharp pencil and give it a rub down!

[Tobi]

Aug 18, 2014 11:10:02 GMT -5 deafpanzer said:

My mistake... it was actually Panther F I bought last week!!! Cyber hobby white box. Hope it has less errors?

The Panther F hull regarding dimensions and most components is virtually that of a Panther G, only with thicker roof armor. 
The radio operator had a ball mount for a StG44 instead of a MG, the drawings in Jeff's bible spin-off "Panzertracts" (also Jentz) don't make a statement about driver's and radio operator's hatches design, but the shape indicates also Panther G.

So if Dragon got that Panther G right, you should be pretty safe when it comes to the hull, for the Schmalturm I can't make a statement without further investigation.

To revive the discussion above a quote from Panzertracts #5-4, page 218:
"Improvements gained by experience and incorporated into the hull design of the Panther II were to be incorporated into the Panther I."

So here it is just like I said before and this makes sense, because when I compare certain features like the cooler air intake guard of a "G" to that of an "A" or a Panther II, its design (not the dimensions) is much closer to the latter. I therefore renew my prior statement regarding the shape and design of the driver and radio operator hatches, that these would have been much likely changed for a possible series production of a Panther II from the prototype hull design to what we know from the "G".

Design work is an evolving process and the Panther II hull we are familiar with was only experimental!