I could use some help.............

[panzerjager2]

So, I have need of help......  As those that follow such things I am building a Panzer III Ausf L with turret skirts.  Now my boggle is that I have NO reference on how the skirt brackets actually mount to the turret???. Now I have a pretty sound library, and have searched a great website called Armortek. But for the love of me I can't find a good picture of an actual PZIII, (not a model, or a PE set companies mounting pic's), I am looking for a clear picture....anyone out there that knows of a lead I would be very appreciative.
Thank you PJ2

[TRM]

not sure how much help I will be, since there is little in the way of quick pics online. But, A shot form Eduards PE set gives a decent look at the brackets....






I did find a line drawing that might help with placement.  Guessing it was drawn in 1/35 originally.  The picture is large and might not be printable if you desire...drop me a pm and I can figure out how to get you the large size.

[S e r z h]

I like how "Schurzens" is installed. The complex and neat plex of the supporting elements is fascinating 

[panzerjager2]

TRM, my friend FIRST THANK YOU....BUT. So I do very much appreciate the pics.... Here's my boggle, (again this is brought to you by the guy who WASN'T gonna tapper the barrel).... In the picture, which is from Voyager or Eduard they show bolts affixing the skirt brackets to the turret roof. They don't show how the skirts themselves were mounted to the bracket arm. Now I am pretty darn sure the skirts were mounted to the brackets using some kind of bolt/rivet/nut/washer combo. That part is easy. How the bracket arms were mounted to the turret, well here's where the "fog" of war/modeling comes into play. Notice on the line drawing you provided, that it clearly shows bolt heads on the skirts....like I said that was easy, does this imply the same was used on the arm supports to the turret??? I for one don't know.... I can't find any reference that again shows how the arm was mounted. Now it makes sense that it "could" be bolted on. BUT that in theory would weaken the armor plates of the turret. So welding MIGHT be the answer. However I can't find a close up picture to go by. And just because the PE company shows something, wellllllllllllllllllllll that doesn't mean it really is or was that way. Those researchers may have come up against the very same problem and "created" their own answer........ 
PJ2

[S e r z h]

As an option - it is necessary to search using German terminology

Panzer III Schurzen

Panzer III with Schurzen

Panzer III Ausf L with Schurzen

But I think that it is unlikely to find good photos that will answer your question. It is better to use drawings

[panzerjager2]

Serzh, Thank you for the  help. I have Google/Bing-ed every combination I could think of.....No luck. I'll see what may pop up here. There's a couple of members that are research junkies like me....you never know what may pop up..

Thanks again 
PJ2

[Leon]

PJ, i did a little searching and found this pic! Hope it might help you out.
Looks like the brackets were bolted to the turret.

sc0008a338 by Leon Dorak, on Flickr

[TRM]

Now I understand a little bit more of what you're looking for PJ....thought you were looking for placement and not attachment. Tough one to go with I know. I do know it was a mixed bag of thing from fastening with bolts/screws to welds. To make the question more problematic, there is the almighty field applications from time to time.

Leon's photo, albeit a Pz. IV, does how what I think was the common practice. There was a small plate welded to the turret with holes for mounting...then the Schützen was bolted on. There is a 50/50 shot that the brackets would be welded or bolted to the Schützen plates themselves...given the nature of the bracket on the Pz. III does not have angled corner supports...my guess? Welded. *I will slide in a little edit...the back where the two pieces of Schützen meet at the stowage bin, I would figure four rivets or bolts into a small rectangular plate.

In this pic, you can see the small mounting plate still welded to the top of this wreck:





While not a Pz. III...this shows a couple of close shots:









Good luck!!    

[panzerjager2]

WOW.....
Leon, Thank you sir.... You are correct, even though your pic is a PzIV the application should be the same.
TRM, Thank you sir.... great shots....just curious is the PzIII in the color shots the Syrian PzIII ??

Anyway, gentleman many thanks. I got a much better handle on what I am going to do now. A little reference goes a long way.

[panzerjager2]

Leon my friend, please accept my humble apology....That may NOT be a PzIV after all.
PJ2

[Leon]

PJ,glad I could help you out! No apologies needed my friend.

[Leon]

I couldn't tell a III from a IV if it bit me! LOL

[Deleted]

Wow, we learn something new every day!

G

[dierk]

Just sent you a mail with some links that should shed even more light into your darkness

[panzerjager2]

Well guys,  huge kudos's and thanks go out to all who helped and shared. I must say that Dierk scored the winning run with a walk off triple in the bottom of the 9th inning. I am including his pics. Now the pics are from Bovington, and of a PzIV. However I think we all can agree that it is HIGHLY doubtful that the German Armaments Ministry changed production standards from the PzIII Ausf "L" and PzIV's mounting Turret skirts...Anyway I now have way too much information which will add years to the build, while at the same time taking years off my life......LOL     

THANKS AGAIN to all

[panzerjager2]

[TRM]

Glad to here you are getting things together in the information realm PJ!! The Germans were fairly strict for some things and then there were the ad hoc stuff ...and even with the Bovington IV being a "museum tank" restoration, it is a good example. As for the pic Leon had posted, it' a Panzerbefehlswagen IV Ausf. J.

I think the bolted skins to the outside of the bracket gives a better look...if you ask me. Beside, you wanted to make more nuts and bolts anyway! LOL

[Tobi]

Funny topic which I didn't care too much about until you mentioned it...

If I'm right the Turmschuerzen were first industrialized on the Ausfuehrung "M", but kits were delivered to the front lines for refurbishment. So they can be found even down to command tanks of Ausf. "E" or "G".

The skirts were bolted to the turret. This doesn't mean there where holes in the turret roof! Small plates with two threaded holes were first welded to the roof and then on this the skirt support arms were fixed with hexagonal screws without washers.

The only scale drawing of a Pz.Kpwf.III with skirts I could find is in PanzerTracts 3-3 on page 85, depicting a III "N". Funny enough Doyle has drawn the orientation of the screw heads exactly the opposite as on his Panzer IV "H" drawing in the issue 4-3 on page 36. Furthermore a photograph of a Finish IV "J" in the same issue on p.64 has the orientation again the same way as on the scale drawing of the III "N"!

A sketch in "Achtung Panzer" #2, p.52 could not decide between the two versions, so they mixed left and right turret side...

The final wartime picture you've been searching for of a III turret roof with skirts can be found on page 71 of Achtung Panzer #2, and it shows clearly the support plates and the support arms with screw heads aligned as in the mentioned  IV "H" drawing of Doyle, PanzerTracts #4-3, page 36.

I conclude both versions were possible, and I doubt that at any time the arms were welded directly to the turret roof, as this would have meant maintenance and replacement troubles of damaged elements. Hope this helped and served as an answer...

[panzerjager2]

Tobi,
Thanks for the input, you are definitely on the list of contributors I hope to get feedback from. You strike as a "research" man....as I am. I like facts not conjecture. Please note you are in good company, folks like TRM Dierk, Joel, Leon and others I am forgetting. 
I took all the input, plus this picture and began my new Support arms and skirts....
Thanks again to all who helped out....

[panzerjager2]

OKAY, I'm going to the well one more time................. So staying with the Panzer III/IV Schurzen... Here is the question: I always "assumed" that Tamiya and Italeri got it right when they reproduced the schurzen access hatches/doors corresponding to the loaders and gunners hatches. That is to say that these doors swung outward Right? Well in doing more research I have seen a myriad of other versions... from: a draw bridge style swinging down into the open gunners hatch, to a single outward swinging door. My question is....Which one is correct. Man I thought i knew the answer.....
This again is all my friend in Germany fault....if only he hadn't mentioned the stinking barrel........................... LOL LOL LOL 
Any help would be appreciated 
PJ2

[Tobi]

I'm almost sure there were a few different "official" styles for these doors.
Swing mechanisms and also plugged on only, but I have to dive deep into my literature archive again.
This field seems not tilled well after all!

Also we must take into account the phenomenon of field modifications. If they delivered these refurbishment kits to maintenance units you can bet there were some very unique designs, depending on available materials.

I'll be back, after office duty.

[panzerjager2]

Tobi, trust me when I say "I get it about field modifications", I think I've made a career out of them..... That being what it is, I welcome any help to the basic question. For me I hate that I don't know the answer to this question. I am a died in the wool Armour nut, been so for 35 years. And now I don't know the answer to this semi basic German Armour question......

PJ2

[dierk]

First of all: I wash my hands of the 'tapered barrel' subject - I was only the second guy to raise that one...and have regretted it ever since
Having said that, I've no problem opening cans of worms, preferably after giving them a good shake first, but German Schürzen, like most other things Gemerman fall way out of my area of expertise - sorry mate. But, I'm sure Tobi will be able to either illuminate your darkness, or turn it pitch black

[joelsmith]

PJ, I have seen photos of two doors opening outward, and one door opening outward. I have not seen a photo of two doors opening inward. In my opinion inward opening doors are counter intuitive, due to the fact that when you are unassing a burning tank, the escape route MUST be as "fiddle" free as possible! I believe that inward doors could/would foul the turret doors and potentially provide "grab" opportunities for crew clothing to be caught by the latch. Don't forget that the Panzer III's fuel tanks were in the engine compartment, but the Panzer IV's were under the fighting compartment. Hope this convoluted answer helps you. Talk more soon, Joel.

[Tobi]

Here I come! 

Dierk, your knowledge of soviet made junk does no good either I've learned the hard way, as I'm still stuck with that damn kT-26! But that is also due to my lack of time.

Back to turret skirts. I was able to identify two systems. The first one basically I've seen on all pictures of Pz.IV is the wider two door arrangement swiveling to the outside. What remains unclear to me here is, what did they do with the upgunnend Ausf.D's, that were retrofitted with these skirts, too? The clearance for the one piece turret side hatch would not have been enough to open it with skirt doors closed!
But we're talking about Pz.III...

On Pz.III the common solution was a much more narrow single piece door. I have to say, even with owning the Spielberger book on the III, a collection of the poor man's almanac on tanks (the PanzerTracts series), the "Achtung Panzer #2" issue, the "Tanks in detail" softcover and several other minor sources on this topic, I still seem to have build up a substantial lack of information in my library regarding this backbone of the German Panzerwaffe. I wonder how can that be?

The single piece hatch is described in Achtung Panzer as detachable, and it's true, there are a lot of wartime pics with this hatch completely missing. There do exist a few shots however, one example is the already referred to picture on page 71 of Achtung Panzer #2, which show that the door could be hinged on the bottom and then fold inwards, so it would rest on the sill of the open side hatch providing some sort of platform. This was also subject of discussion here, over at network54. Field modification?

In the Spielberger book Doyle gave an illustration (dated 1970) of a III "N" on page 68 with the wider two door arrangement of the Pz. IV, but I was not able to confirm this in a picture of the real thing. However, in the book "Befehlspanzer" on page 30, there is a picture of two doors hinged vertically on a III "J", swiveling outside. The opening seems to be of the narrow type, like commonly found on the Pz.III. It remains a mystery if this was only one of the famous field modifications, as it is the only picture of this solution I have seen so far.

Now one could start to plow through all the illustrated books with unsorted collections looking for pictures of M's and N's, like the Panzerwrecks series or the Concorde softcovers, but I will leave this to you.
What remains is the fog of war and an educated guess! 

[panzerjager2]

Dierk, Tobi, and Joel,  Thanks for the input. I have several new plans, one of which calls for me only to build New Zealand Armour of the Second World War....LOL

[Tobi]

Sure you know what you're gettin' yourself into there?

[Prop Duster]

Jun 12, 2017 16:10:34 GMT -5 panzerjager2 said:

Dierk, Tobi, and Joel,  Thanks for the input. I have several new plans, one of which calls for me only to build New Zealand Armour of the Second World War....LOL

Jun 13, 2017 3:51:10 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Sure you know what you're gettin' yourself into there?

He should, with all his background and being eminently qualified in most aspects of big steel clanky things. Unless he wanted to tackle the 978th South Island Armor and Sheep Sheering Brigade; Their history is shrouded in deepest mystery even today.

p.s. panzerjager2 your interest in research and fact gathering is a pleasure to watch.

[pt109]

Adding a very late post here so hope the info is still relevant...frankly I wouldn't rely too much on Museum photos as some of their modifications follow no standards.
Better to use war time pics if possible, just some good advice from someone who found out the hard way doing extensive research on the German Ferdinand/Elefant.

Paul

PS  As a side note, in the pic of the eduard set you can see the sprue tabs on the schurtzen PE turret plates weren't sanded off, just thought that was funny. You can also see red primer on the wheel spacer plates in the Museum pics of the PZ IV.