Academy 1:25 Panther G - 8/25 Onto the next problem

[Tobi]

Nice workshop!

I can tell, I've spent years building models in the same spot where I ate and also slept.
Now being in our house, it will be the first time I can try a whole new set-up! I dream of a build desk, a paint-shop table and a corner for taking photographs. And everything outside my bedroom!

[reserve]

I built this kit about thirty years ago and recall it fondly. You are a braver man than I with all the PE I must say, a medium which I dislike intenseley even tho it enhances a model quite well.

You're making a fine job of this

[Joe Rix]

I just took the opportunity to peruse your Panther project you've got going on. Dang! That is one impressive and ambitious endeavor you are taking on. Love it. That is indeed an interesting scale. Really sharp work so far especially with all the PE.

You are certainly not alone in the neat bench category. I keep mine neat and organized and always put things back in their place when I'm done for the day. I like your space. Very functional.

I'll be checking in regularly.

[chromdome35]

Back to the bench

Now that the sponsons are in I am turning my attention to texturing the hull, simulating flame cutting on the steel plates and redoing the kit weld beads.

Using my tamiya scriber, I slowly dig out the molded in weld beads


Once the weld beads are all removed and the cleanup is done, I texture the hull to represent rolled steel based on a technique shared by Night Shift in one of his videos. Cement is brushed onto the hull followed by quickly stipling the area with a stiff bristle brush.


Once completed, I stipple the plates using Mr. Disolved Putty.

After sanding the applied texture, I score the edges of the plates to represent flame cutting.

Then I put in new weld beads using Green Stuff. I texture the weld beads using a homemade tool cut from a soda can.



Texture, Welds, and Flame cutting are all visible.

[mustang1989]

Man that is just CRAZY cool stuff you're doing to this Brian. Jeez man!!! It just changed the whole appearance of this thing. Excellent upgrade!

It just goes to show what is possible in modeling with just a tad bit more research and digging.

[Leon]

This is looking good Brian!

[chromdome35]

Thanks guys, digging out those molded in weld beads was tedious, it might have been the tool I was using. I would love to hear how others do this.

[Steve Zuleski]

You got the weld seams down pat, excellent!

[buddho]

Outstanding workmanship on so many levels. Looking forward to the next stage on the kit. 😃

[Tobi]

I have no better technique to offer for scraping out the weld beads, I'm afraid.

Some small hints: check the armor plates thicknesses before scraping. The side armor should be thinner than it is now presented on your model. Also weld beads are not always just perpendicular to the edges, they have a certain orientation which is kept throughout the welding process:

[Tobi]

I know I'm an awful rivet counter :-)

[mustang1989]

LOL!! You sure know your way around armor Tobi.

[ogrejohn]

Just getting caught up here and what a wonderful build!

[Joe Rix]

Man! That is some really outstanding results. Your skills to achieve that level of realism and accuracy are to highly commended. Superb work John.

[chromdome35]

Feb 26, 2023 6:39:52 GMT -5 Tobi said:

I know I'm an awful rivet counter :-)

Tobi, I appreciate your comments so very much. When I was doing the weld beads I had this question running around in the cavern of my head: “I wonder what Tobi will say?” I love it because it makes me a better modeler.

I think my problem with my plates appearing too thick, derives from the molded in kit beads which were that size. To fix it, I think I would need to take out my beads and fill in, smooth off the existing cbead channels, then re scribe them. My hesitancy to attempt lies in my ability to execute that effort without making a total mess of it. If this build comes out good enough to enter into a competition (would be a regional and my first ever entry into a competition) is the flaw enough to keep it out of the winners circle, assuming the rest of the build is competitive?

[buddho]

What a cool build going on, and your step by step is great to follow. Your work area is so impressive! Looking forward to when you get back and continue on this build.

[chromdome35]

Feb 26, 2023 11:38:05 GMT -5 buddho said:

What a cool build going on, and your step by step is great to follow. Your work area is so impressive! Looking forward to when you get back and continue on this build.

Thank you!
I am actively working on it, I build really slow, will make an update later today. I have been finishing off the weld beads and making enhancements to the kit Jack. I spent a couple of hours last night making 2 working microscopic hinges in PE for the jack holding bracket. That has to put me on some insanity watch list somewhere.

[buddho]

Good to hear...looks like this is one intensive project, including the size of it. I've never build larger than 1/35.

[chromdome35]

Feb 26, 2023 11:50:21 GMT -5 buddho said:

Good to hear...looks like this is one intensive project, including the size of it. I've never build larger than 1/35.

My first larger than 1/35 kit as well, doesn’t seem to make much difference with the PE, it’s still tiny.

[Tobi]

Feb 26, 2023 11:32:47 GMT -5 chromdome35 said:

Feb 26, 2023 6:39:52 GMT -5 Tobi said:

I know I'm an awful rivet counter :-)

Tobi, I appreciate your comments so very much. When I was doing the weld beads I had this question running around in the cavern of my head: “I wonder what Tobi will say?” I love it because it makes me a better modeler.

I think my problem with my plates appearing too thick, derives from the molded in kit beads which were that size. To fix it, I think I would need to take out my beads and fill in, smooth off the existing cbead channels, then re scribe them. My hesitancy to attempt lies in my ability to execute that effort without making a total mess of it. If this build comes out good enough to enter into a competition (would be a regional and my first ever entry into a competition) is the flaw enough to keep it out of the winners circle, assuming the rest of the build is competitive?

Brian, I don't think this would be a show stopper. I'd say most people will hardly ever notice, because they don't know where to look at.

1. You need to be kinda compulsive, painstakingly obsessed with detail, to a degree of disorder.
2. You need to have done this kind of work yourself before, best not without making some mistakes of your own.

Both conditions apply to me.

No, a good paint-job and realistic weathering will make most people overlook it. That and most even don't know the Panther well enough in detail. See how I stare at Russ' M-48 build and can't make out which frickin' booboo he's talking about? 
Nevertheless, I don't know if you're already doing it that way: taking Dymo tape as a guide for your blade on scribing should make it an easy fix. I've learned that trick from the aircraft modelers when they redo fuselages.

Well, as long as you don't drive yourself mad about what I might say!   
I brought this up, only because it's you and I knew you would appreciate it. Anyone else and I'd have had my trap kept shut.

[chromdome35]

Feb 26, 2023 12:55:17 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Feb 26, 2023 11:32:47 GMT -5 chromdome35 said:

Tobi, I appreciate your comments so very much. When I was doing the weld beads I had this question running around in the cavern of my head: “I wonder what Tobi will say?” I love it because it makes me a better modeler.

I think my problem with my plates appearing too thick, derives from the molded in kit beads which were that size. To fix it, I think I would need to take out my beads and fill in, smooth off the existing cbead channels, then re scribe them. My hesitancy to attempt lies in my ability to execute that effort without making a total mess of it. If this build comes out good enough to enter into a competition (would be a regional and my first ever entry into a competition) is the flaw enough to keep it out of the winners circle, assuming the rest of the build is competitive?

Brian, I don't think this would be a show stopper. I'd say most people will hardly ever notice, because they don't know where to look at.

1. You need to be kinda compulsive, painstakingly obsessed with detail, to a degree of disorder.
2. You need to have done this kind of work yourself before, best not without making some mistakes of your own.

Both conditions apply to me.

No, a good paint-job and realistic weathering will make most people overlook it. That and most even don't know the Panther well enough in detail. See how I stare at Russ' M-48 build and can't make out which frickin' booboo he's talking about? 
Nevertheless, I don't know if you're already doing it that way: taking Dymo tape as a guide for your blade on scribing should make it an easy fix. I've learned that trick from the aircraft modelers when they redo fuselages.

Well, as long as you don't drive yourself mad about what I might say!   
I brought this up, only because it's you and I knew you would appreciate it. Anyone else and I'd have had my trap kept shut.

I have not used Dymo tape or any kind of guide, I did this freehand. I will definitely research that.

And you are right, I appreciate it.

I don't think I'm at the painstakingly obsessive mindset to be a master rivet counter like yourself (that was said in jest) but I think I'm on the journey to it.

[Tobi]

No offense taken. 

Back off as long as you can, you will be captured in a vicious circle!
Sometimes I miss my teenage days, when it was just building and painting. No books, no internet, just the kit and me. 

Freehand scribing? You're a brave man! 

[mustang1989]

Feb 27, 2023 1:30:38 GMT -5 Tobi said:

No offense taken. 

Back off as long as you can, you will be captured in a vicious circle!
Sometimes I miss my teenage days, when it was just building and painting. No books, no internet, just the kit and me. 

Freehand scribing? You're a brave man! 

I know right??!! I miss those days where it would take me two days to build a model and BAM....they're done!! I still have alot of fun at it but it's definitely a lesson in delayed gratification. lol 

[chromdome35]

An abbreviated update to my build thread

I have been extremely busy with work and haven't had as much time at the bench as I would like, but work feeds my modeling habit, so I guess I'll keep working.

What time I have had at the bench has been spent doing two things, finishing the weld beads on the rear of the tank and trying to increase the detail of the jack that came with the kit.

The Aber photo etch set of 1/25 German tie downs and assorted tools also included a jack bracket. It isn't an exact match for the one on the back of the Panther G, but it's really close and Tobi's probably the only person who would notice it isn't right . Bending it was no issue, but building the hinges and attaching the hinge part was exceedingly difficult for me. I spent hours working on it to achieve a mediocre result.



I also cut off the molded carry handles and replaced them with wire. I bent them on purpose to give a little character.

I also changed out the kit's rotary handle with a scratch-built one.


Here is the almost finished result, the little microscopic wingnut that holds it closed was devoured by the carpet monster. I think I will just replace it with a piece of circular styrene.


With the jack mounted on the rear.


That PE bracket almost drove me insane, glad that is behind me.

I'm trying to decide if I should texture the back plate and the top plate of the body before I proceed. I think I am almost to job end on the body enhancements and can proceed with the rest of the build.

As always, your comments and feedback are very appreciated.

[hasenpfeffer]

Hey Brian, So, I'll sorta give my 2 cents... I suppose take caution, cuz sometimes I don't really know what I'm talking about and just go on perception. As far as the welds go, Tobi is right on the plate thickness, but I'm not so sure on the weld orientation. When welding they follow the plate join seam and the material build-up that we perceive as those cool looking wavy lines follows the tool path. (Or workers path). So I don't see how you could get lines parallel with the plate (seam) lines unless they do separate individual welds side by side which would be a waste of time. Even Tobi's picture of the Panther G shows at least a severe angle (compared to parallel) on the horizontal welds. All this is to say that I think the weld lines are pretty much perpendicular to the weld path taken - which follows the plate seam line. So I think you got it right. As for the texturing... I often think it is over done. For cast parts, go ham. For rolled steel I think it turns out too severe for reality. But again, my opinion. The late war tank's rolled steel is definitely rougher than early and mid war tanks. I've seen Panzer IIIs in museums that have a rough texture, but I have had a hell of a time finding pictures taken at the time showing that same roughness. I posit that it could be pitting from sitting in the elements for so many years. But??? This is where a time machine would come in handy and a few hours with each subject and a modern camera. LOL. I find Tobi's pic very interesting in the fact you can see a cast seam on the mantlet. Cool. The ball mount machine gun housing is very interesting also, if it is original. Cast with many machine planes.

Anyway - this isn't meant to be a rant, or even rivet counting, just my opinion... I think you are doing a great job on this bad boy. The PE is a pain sometimes, but it is rewarding when it works out. Looks great too. Practice makes better ya know. It's all a function of how crazy deep down the rabbit hole you wanna go and how fun/rewarding that is for you.

[chromdome35]

Feb 28, 2023 21:24:55 GMT -5 hasenpfeffer said:

Hey Brian, So, I'll sorta give my 2 cents... I suppose take caution, cuz sometimes I don't really know what I'm talking about and just go on perception. As far as the welds go, Tobi is right on the plate thickness, but I'm not so sure on the weld orientation. When welding they follow the plate join seam and the material build-up that we perceive as those cool looking wavy lines follows the tool path. (Or workers path). So I don't see how you could get lines parallel with the plate (seam) lines unless they do separate individual welds side by side which would be a waste of time. Even Tobi's picture of the Panther G shows at least a severe angle (compared to parallel) on the horizontal welds. All this is to say that I think the weld lines are pretty much perpendicular to the weld path taken - which follows the plate seam line. So I think you got it right. As for the texturing... I often think it is over done. For cast parts, go ham. For rolled steel I think it turns out too severe for reality. But again, my opinion. The late war tank's rolled steel is definitely rougher than early and mid war tanks. I've seen Panzer IIIs in museums that have a rough texture, but I have had a hell of a time finding pictures taken at the time showing that same roughness. I posit that it could be pitting from sitting in the elements for so many years. But??? This is where a time machine would come in handy and a few hours with each subject and a modern camera. LOL. I find Tobi's pic very interesting in the fact you can see a cast seam on the mantlet. Cool. The ball mount machine gun housing is very interesting also, if it is original. Cast with many machine planes.

Anyway - this isn't meant to be a rant, or even rivet counting, just my opinion... I think you are doing a great job on this bad boy. The PE is a pain sometimes, but it is rewarding when it works out. Looks great too. Practice makes better ya know. It's all a function of how crazy deep down the rabbit hole you wanna go and how fun/rewarding that is for you.

Thanks! I appreciate your thoughts! I think the problem with locating pictures that show the texture of the plate is that you have to be taking a picture of the texture for it to be visible because of the subtleness of the texture. I am going to give what Ive done another sanding to take it down a bit more.

[captfue]

Looks like a great build.

[Tobi]

Feb 28, 2023 21:24:55 GMT -5 hasenpfeffer said:

Hey Brian, So, I'll sorta give my 2 cents... I suppose take caution, cuz sometimes I don't really know what I'm talking about and just go on perception. As far as the welds go, Tobi is right on the plate thickness, but I'm not so sure on the weld orientation. When welding they follow the plate join seam and the material build-up that we perceive as those cool looking wavy lines follows the tool path. (Or workers path). So I don't see how you could get lines parallel with the plate (seam) lines unless they do separate individual welds side by side which would be a waste of time. Even Tobi's picture of the Panther G shows at least a severe angle (compared to parallel) on the horizontal welds. All this is to say that I think the weld lines are pretty much perpendicular to the weld path taken - which follows the plate seam line. So I think you got it right. As for the texturing... I often think it is over done. For cast parts, go ham. For rolled steel I think it turns out too severe for reality. But again, my opinion. The late war tank's rolled steel is definitely rougher than early and mid war tanks. I've seen Panzer IIIs in museums that have a rough texture, but I have had a hell of a time finding pictures taken at the time showing that same roughness. I posit that it could be pitting from sitting in the elements for so many years. But??? This is where a time machine would come in handy and a few hours with each subject and a modern camera. LOL. I find Tobi's pic very interesting in the fact you can see a cast seam on the mantlet. Cool. The ball mount machine gun housing is very interesting also, if it is original. Cast with many machine planes.

Anyway - this isn't meant to be a rant, or even rivet counting, just my opinion... I think you are doing a great job on this bad boy. The PE is a pain sometimes, but it is rewarding when it works out. Looks great too. Practice makes better ya know. It's all a function of how crazy deep down the rabbit hole you wanna go and how fun/rewarding that is for you.

Cheers Dave, you've brought up some very good points and for the welding I admit that my first statement about weld beads is somewhat mistakable as if it's a general rule, but only something I have observed on (severall) occasions. To be exactly sure you would need to study every single weld bead from the original. But to illustrate my point here is a glacis plate of a Tiger B in La Gleize. One can see how the orientation of the welds on the extended hull side was changed out of nowhere, most likely as you say because of the working position of the welder. If I look closely at the ball mount, I have again the impression all welding is horizontally. It's been almost 30 years since I've been welding for the last time and it was no armored steel, but I imagine it is difficult to follow the shape of the circle going round, because you will get more material on the inner edge of the ball mount, than on the outer edge of the glacis plate?




Brian, your statement is making me a tiny bit embarrassed.    I would have to look up the jack installation like most of us, before I'd even dare to comment.

What appeared a little strange to me at first is the handle so close to the exhaust pipe, but I found it is documented in photographs. I would have expected a foldable handle, so you can never know.

[chromdome35]

Mar 1, 2023 1:25:30 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Feb 28, 2023 21:24:55 GMT -5 hasenpfeffer said:

Hey Brian, So, I'll sorta give my 2 cents... I suppose take caution, cuz sometimes I don't really know what I'm talking about and just go on perception. As far as the welds go, Tobi is right on the plate thickness, but I'm not so sure on the weld orientation. When welding they follow the plate join seam and the material build-up that we perceive as those cool looking wavy lines follows the tool path. (Or workers path). So I don't see how you could get lines parallel with the plate (seam) lines unless they do separate individual welds side by side which would be a waste of time. Even Tobi's picture of the Panther G shows at least a severe angle (compared to parallel) on the horizontal welds. All this is to say that I think the weld lines are pretty much perpendicular to the weld path taken - which follows the plate seam line. So I think you got it right. As for the texturing... I often think it is over done. For cast parts, go ham. For rolled steel I think it turns out too severe for reality. But again, my opinion. The late war tank's rolled steel is definitely rougher than early and mid war tanks. I've seen Panzer IIIs in museums that have a rough texture, but I have had a hell of a time finding pictures taken at the time showing that same roughness. I posit that it could be pitting from sitting in the elements for so many years. But??? This is where a time machine would come in handy and a few hours with each subject and a modern camera. LOL. I find Tobi's pic very interesting in the fact you can see a cast seam on the mantlet. Cool. The ball mount machine gun housing is very interesting also, if it is original. Cast with many machine planes.

Anyway - this isn't meant to be a rant, or even rivet counting, just my opinion... I think you are doing a great job on this bad boy. The PE is a pain sometimes, but it is rewarding when it works out. Looks great too. Practice makes better ya know. It's all a function of how crazy deep down the rabbit hole you wanna go and how fun/rewarding that is for you.

Cheers Dave, you've brought up some very good points and for the welding I admit that my first statement about weld beads is somewhat mistakable as if it's a general rule, but only something I have observed on (severall) occasions. To be exactly sure you would need to study every single weld bead from the original. But to illustrate my point here is a glacis plate of a Tiger B in La Gleize. One can see how the orientation of the welds on the extended hull side was changed out of nowhere, most likely as you say because of the working position of the welder. If I look closely at the ball mount, I have again the impression all welding is horizontally. It's been almost 30 years since I've been welding for the last time and it was no armored steel, but I imagine it is difficult to follow the shape of the circle going round, because you will get more material on the inner edge of the ball mount, than on the outer edge of the glacis plate?




Brian, your statement is making me a tiny bit embarrassed.    I would have to look up the jack installation like most of us, before I'd even dare to comment.

What appeared a little strange to me at first is the handle so close to the exhaust pipe, but I found it is documented in photographs. I would have expected a foldable handle, so you can never know.

Tobi, certainly not my intent to cause you embarrassment, your guidance and advice are invaluable to me. I was just building off the humor of our recent exchange regarding reaching master rivet counter status. I poured over every reference photo I could find of the jack in an attempt to get it right. ETA: I can always cut down the length of the horizontal rod that forms the handle if it ends up looking too long.

I gave the hull texture another round of wet sanding and I'm much happier with texturing now. Tobi, should the top horizontal plate of the hull be textured, the kit has no texture at all, it is perfectly smooth. I would think it should be as it's the same rolled steel as the other panels, so wouldn't it have a slight texture as well?

[Tobi]

No problem Brian, I was jesting as well. :-)
Not sure about the top plates. These were thinner than the rest. From my observation the thinner the plates, the smoother the surface.
The scaling of sheet metal (this is where the look is coming from) is a complicated process depending from several factors: alloy, thickness, temperature, deformation degree...
My advice, study as many pictures as you can. Personally, I wouldn't roughen the texture of the top plates.