BF109

[tcoat]

Before I get into the build I need help from the collective mind of the BF109 aficionados!
When I was a little kid our neighbour was a former RAF aircraft tech from WW2. is main job was recovering crashed enemy wrecks. I used to listen to his stories for hours and it is hard to comprhened that at that time he was almost 20 years younger than I am now! When I was 9 or 10 years old he gave me a few parts from crashed German aircraft that he had kept.

Among them were these two controls (Flight and landing)













He told me he cut them out of BF109 that crashed late in the London Blitz. 
Looking them up I found that they were used in the BF109 F through K.

Here they are in an F (circled)





So I could find the right aircraft but WHAT DO THEY DO? Anybody?

[garydavis]

wild guess here..could they be light controls for flying and landing?

[Tobi]

Apr 22, 2023 23:37:37 GMT -5 garydavis said:

wild guess here..could they be light controls for flying and landing?

Not just light controls, they're actually push buttons for gear up and gear down.

[mustang1989]

Apr 23, 2023 3:02:03 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 22, 2023 23:37:37 GMT -5 garydavis said:

wild guess here..could they be light controls for flying and landing?

Not just light controls, they're actually push buttons for gear up and gear down.

Dead on Tobi. The landing gear indicators are just to the left of those buttons and were Labeled "EIN" for out and "AUS" for in. 109's also had a manual back up system that would drop the landing gear in case the hydraulic system failed.

[mustang1989]

If you're interested this is a full explanation of the 109 cockpit. It's in animated format but it's pretty detailed & informative and covers those two buttons as well. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0SmHYZBBE4

[tcoat]

Apr 23, 2023 3:02:03 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 22, 2023 23:37:37 GMT -5 garydavis said:

wild guess here..could they be light controls for flying and landing?

Not just light controls, they're actually push buttons for gear up and gear down.

I always assumed they were landing gear related (one even says it!) but never sure they actually operated it and were not just a side effect. They don't seem to be push operated but possibly turned as the knobs are heavily knurled? On the other hand the two groves may have been for push/pull detents that are missing.

There are no wires associated with them so not electrical. The tube is some sort of heavy anodized aluminum alloy (nickel?) that even after spending 20 years in his shed and 50 years knocking around random place with  me looks like they was cut off yesterday. Not one little bit of oxidization anywhere on the whole thing.  

One was cut and one obviously ripped out. The one that was twisted has some dirt in the break but as I have never cleaned these in any fashion and they are still as handed to me I don't know if that was from the crash or sitting in his shed. The cut off one literally still is shiny as if just done. It wasn't!





The broken off one has the remains of the bushing and snap clip that held it onto the rear of the panel still in place. Where the other looks like it was carefully cutoff and pulled from the panel this on e was smashed through from the front and twisted off. Don't know if from the salvage or crash but why cut one out and twist the other off? The bushing is some form of Bakelite and what looks like rust is actually just the material deteriorating. When I got it that was still a nice clean break. The bluing on the clip is still perfect and again what looks like rust is just material coming off the bushing. There is not one spot of rust on either of the controls.



The one that was cut off is not without damage. These marks are from hitting something HARD as this material is not some nice light and easily damaged aluminum. 



 


So, in summary, the small size of the knobs belies how robust they are but I am now convinced (Thanks Tobi) that they do indeed operate the hydrualics for the landing gear and are not just some subsidiary system when landing. 

Now all I need to do is find a picture of a BF109-F or later that crashed on the coast of England in spring 1941 and it just may be the aircraft these came from. 

[tcoat]

Apr 23, 2023 6:30:15 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

If you're interested this is a full explanation of the 109 cockpit. It's in animated format but it's pretty detailed & informative and covers those two buttons as well. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0SmHYZBBE4

Figures. The most comprehensive thing I have ever seen on the subject is a videogame walkthrough!

Once I find it my next one will be what I believe is part of the magneto system from a JU188. No doubt what aircraft it came out of since it is factory stamped "JU188". 

[mustang1989]

Apr 23, 2023 7:47:26 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Apr 23, 2023 6:30:15 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

If you're interested this is a full explanation of the 109 cockpit. It's in animated format but it's pretty detailed & informative and covers those two buttons as well. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0SmHYZBBE4

Figures. The most comprehensive thing I have ever seen on the subject is a videogame walkthrough!

Once I find it my next one will be what I believe is part of the magneto system from a JU188. No doubt what aircraft it came out of since it is factory stamped "JU188". 

LOL! The way I look at it is that it might not be a real life reference but it's at least something. Now I know what I'm building when I'm putting a 109 cockpit together. I'm planning on buildiing another 109 next year. 

This is a Bf109 G-14 that I built upon my return to the hobby 12 years ago. I had to choose the hardest camo scheme! Lol
I’m going to get this one out of the case and shoot some updated pictures of it with my newer camera.

1/24 Trumpeter offering:

[mustang1989]

Just so you know, I am a hard CORE 109 and 190 fanatic. If you ever have any questions on these airframes, I have extensive information on them.

[tcoat]

Apr 23, 2023 8:18:48 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

Apr 23, 2023 7:47:26 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Figures. The most comprehensive thing I have ever seen on the subject is a videogame walkthrough!

Once I find it my next one will be what I believe is part of the magneto system from a JU188. No doubt what aircraft it came out of since it is factory stamped "JU188". 

LOL! The way I look at it is that it might not be a real life reference but it's at least something. Now I know what I'm building when I'm putting a 109 cockpit together. I'm planning on buildiing another 109 next year. 

This is a Bf109 G-14 that I built upon my return to the hobby 12 years ago. I had to choose the hardest camo scheme! Lol
I’m going to get this one out of the case and shoot some updated pictures of it with my newer camera.

1/24 Trumpeter offering:

I am starting the one I got dirt cheap a while back.



I do have a question. The instructions show the interior as a grey/green but every picture shows it as a more distinct grey. What should it be?

[Tobi]

Apr 23, 2023 8:31:20 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

Just so you know, I am a hard CORE 109 and 190 fanatic. If you ever have any questions on these airframes, I have extensive information on them.

I almost forgot that you not only build cars, but are also a Luftwaffe afficionado.

Is it true that Adolf Galland had an ashtray for his cigars and a sniper scope installed in his Bf-109?

[tcoat]

Apr 23, 2023 8:31:20 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

Just so you know, I am a hard CORE 109 and 190 fanatic. If you ever have any questions on these airframes, I have extensive information on them.

What colour should the cockpit of the E be? Pictures vary substantially from a tan(ish) sort of green grey (as per the instructions) to a dark almost panzer grey.
Looking it up it is just a confusing mess of conflicting opinions!

[406 Silverado]

Apr 25, 2023 12:51:29 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Apr 23, 2023 8:31:20 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

Just so you know, I am a hard CORE 109 and 190 fanatic. If you ever have any questions on these airframes, I have extensive information on them.

What colour should the cockpit of the E be? Pictures vary substantially from a tan(ish) sort of green grey (as per the instructions) to a dark almost panzer grey.
Looking it up it is just a confusing mess of conflicting opinions!

RLM 02 was the standardized color of all 109 pits in the early stages of the war. It was common to see the paint worn off to reveal the aluminum color underneath as typically only one coat of 02 was applied. In later stages of the war, somewhere around 1943 the switch to RLM 66 was common place. Quite honestly, either one of these colors will "work". Myself, I'd probably go with RLM 02 Tony as it'll lend itself to bringing out details in the cockpit a little better since it's a lot lighter in grey color. Hope this helps you out potna.

[406 Silverado]

To add.......you're gonna see a TON of arguments and question marks on the usage of Luftwaffe colors on different threads, forums, discussions, research material....etc. The Luftwaffe took alot of liberties with their colors.....particularly in the later stages of the war. Sometimes......it's best to do the research and use it merely as a tool.....then go with your gut on the colors. lol

[406 Silverado]

Apr 23, 2023 9:13:33 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 23, 2023 8:31:20 GMT -5 mustang1989 said:

Just so you know, I am a hard CORE 109 and 190 fanatic. If you ever have any questions on these airframes, I have extensive information on them.

I almost forgot that you not only build cars, but are also a Luftwaffe afficionado.

Is it true that Adolf Galland had an ashtray for his cigars and a sniper scope installed in his Bf-109?

I can't vouch for the ash tray but I've read something about the hunting scope in his aircraft before. Some believe that it was used by Galland to identify aircraft from further away to determine friend/ foe or for aircraft ID from a distance.

[tcoat]

Apr 25, 2023 19:25:09 GMT -5 406 Silverado said:

To add.......you're gonna see a TON of arguments and question marks on the usage of Luftwaffe colors on different threads, forums, discussions, research material....etc. The Luftwaffe took alot of liberties with their colors.....particularly in the later stages of the war. Sometimes......it's best to do the research and use it merely as a tool.....then go with your gut on the colors. lol

All countries were liberal with their "standard" colours depending on when, where and who made. When researching the broken Mustang I found out even the P-51 had 12 different "olive drabs" and no less than 26 (yes twenty six) shades of zinc chromate primer. In fact they were losing them so fast at one point they didn't bother priming at all!
There is almost no way to go wrong unless you are doing a very specific individual aircraft at a very precise and documented moment in time.

The reason I asked for the 109 is more that I don't have the right colour as called out and don't want to buy a bottle for one cockpit so was hoping that like other aircraft I had some leeway. Appears I do so light sea gray it will be!

[406 Silverado]

Apr 25, 2023 19:40:17 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Apr 25, 2023 19:25:09 GMT -5 406 Silverado said:

To add.......you're gonna see a TON of arguments and question marks on the usage of Luftwaffe colors on different threads, forums, discussions, research material....etc. The Luftwaffe took alot of liberties with their colors.....particularly in the later stages of the war. Sometimes......it's best to do the research and use it merely as a tool.....then go with your gut on the colors. lol

All countries were liberal with their "standard" colours depending on when, where and who made. When researching the broken Mustang I found out even the P-51 had 12 different "olive drabs" and no less than 26 (yes twenty six) shades of zinc chromate primer. In fact they were losing them so fast at one point they didn't bother priming at all!
There is almost no way to go wrong unless you are doing a very specific individual aircraft at a very precise and documented moment in time.

The reason I asked for the 109 is more that I don't have the right colour as called out and don't want to buy a bottle for one cockpit so was hoping that like other aircraft I had some leeway. Appears I do so light sea gray it will be!

That sounds like a safe bet PLUS, once it's weathered up some with a wash or so you're probably gonna be pretty close to 02 anyways Tony. I dabble mostly in Luftwaffe subjects so it does surprise me at all the color variations of chromate.

[Tobi]

Apr 25, 2023 19:40:17 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Apr 25, 2023 19:25:09 GMT -5 406 Silverado said:

To add.......you're gonna see a TON of arguments and question marks on the usage of Luftwaffe colors on different threads, forums, discussions, research material....etc. The Luftwaffe took alot of liberties with their colors.....particularly in the later stages of the war. Sometimes......it's best to do the research and use it merely as a tool.....then go with your gut on the colors. lol

All countries were liberal with their "standard" colours depending on when, where and who made. When researching the broken Mustang I found out even the P-51 had 12 different "olive drabs" and no less than 26 (yes twenty six) shades of zinc chromate primer. In fact they were losing them so fast at one point they didn't bother priming at all!
There is almost no way to go wrong unless you are doing a very specific individual aircraft at a very precise and documented moment in time.

The reason I asked for the 109 is more that I don't have the right colour as called out and don't want to buy a bottle for one cockpit so was hoping that like other aircraft I had some leeway. Appears I do so light sea gray it will be!

You're absolutely right, even if one tries to be not liberal.


This is a picture of a 2022 industry production painted overall in RAL6031 standardized color, delivered from one and same supplier and in formulation approved and certified by the German Army authority and testing institute WIWeB.

Of course it was not handed over to the customer like that, but it's a reoccurring problem that anyone from the business with at least a little paint experience will second. Coating parts separately gives different shades, standardized or not.
It's an extreme example and you can argue, before the appearance of water based 2-K lacquers in the automotive industry, it was better predictable and hand-able, but that's subject to discussion.






Any case there are modeler dudes or whatever researchers out there, with absolutely no professional industry background (and I do not care what they do for a living or what they have collected over the time) who try to tell me seriously how meticulously exact the Wehrmacht was about its paints and color shades, and even more how precise the very color can be told from an eighty years old sample card from the moldy basement, where modern RAL sample cards loose their validation after three years (and that long only if they were stored properly).



Yeah, Mr. expert, thanks for the conversation, I don't care how mad you are at me now, but I don't buy it...

[tcoat]

Apr 26, 2023 6:39:00 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Apr 25, 2023 19:40:17 GMT -5 tcoat said:

All countries were liberal with their "standard" colours depending on when, where and who made. When researching the broken Mustang I found out even the P-51 had 12 different "olive drabs" and no less than 26 (yes twenty six) shades of zinc chromate primer. In fact they were losing them so fast at one point they didn't bother priming at all!
There is almost no way to go wrong unless you are doing a very specific individual aircraft at a very precise and documented moment in time.

The reason I asked for the 109 is more that I don't have the right colour as called out and don't want to buy a bottle for one cockpit so was hoping that like other aircraft I had some leeway. Appears I do so light sea gray it will be!

You're absolutely right, even if one tries to be not liberal.


This is a picture of a 2022 industry production painted overall in RAL6031 standardized color, delivered from one and same supplier and in formulation approved and certified by the German Army authority and testing institute WIWeB.

Of course it was not handed over to the customer like that, but it's a reoccurring problem that anyone from the business with at least a little paint experience will second. Coating parts separately gives different shades, standardized or not.
It's an extreme example and you can argue, before the appearance of water based 2-K lacquers in the automotive industry, it was better predictable and hand-able, but that's subject to discussion.






Any case there are modeler dudes or whatever researchers out there, with absolutely no professional industry background (and I do not care what they do for a living or what they have collected over the time) who try to tell me seriously how meticulously exact the Wehrmacht was about its paints and color shades, and even more how precise the very color can be told from an eighty years old sample card from the moldy basement, where modern RAL sample cards loose their validation after three years (and that long only if they were stored properly).



Yeah, Mr. expert, thanks for the conversation, I don't care how mad you are at me now, but I don't buy it...

Or one of my favourites is when somebody uses a colourized picture as a reference. These are rarely ever even close since it is just somebody's (often a computer's) idea of what the colours should be not what they actually were. 

[Tobi]

Same with books. The AK "Real colors of WWII" is a very negative example for that and they had huge access to primary sources. 

[Steve Zuleski]

Well, I'm glad yall got this covered cause I'm clueless on this intel, but I'm looking forward to the build!

Ruck On, Bby!

[tcoat]

Apr 26, 2023 11:06:05 GMT -5 Steve Zuleski said:

Well, I'm glad yall got this covered cause I'm clueless on this intel, but I'm looking forward to the build!

Ruck On, Bby!

LOL Well I hope I don't disappoint since this will be  very basic OOB build to fill in time before the Panther GB. It isn't really a subject high on my interest list and the only reason I have it was I got it so cheap I couldn't pass it up. I will try to do it justice though since I don't want Joe and the Luftwaffe crew to recoil in horror.