stikpusher
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Post by stikpusher on Jun 26, 2023 12:12:30 GMT -5
Looking good Dave. Don't worry about the dark yellow in the photos. That shade can get some major color shift depending upon the lighting.
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reserve
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Si vis pacem para bellum
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Jul 11, 2012 9:11:45 GMT -5
Jul 11, 2012 9:11:45 GMT -5
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Post by reserve on Jun 27, 2023 20:28:09 GMT -5
Looks like Dunkelglieb to me
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jun 27, 2023 21:33:51 GMT -5
Like Joe pointed out the wheel rubbers are looking outstanding under paint. I didn't recognize this in the first shots after the clean-up. Maybe you want to do a little tutorial showing your steps and tools? I'll be down for that!!! Looking forward to learning a thing or two about this process. |
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 1, 2023 7:27:00 GMT -5
I HATE moving mulch and I am glad it only happens every two years as we order between 10-12 cubic yard! Glad to see your panthers with wheels on! Yeah, it's a beatdown for sure. And I'm only doing half of what your are! Like Joe pointed out the wheel rubbers are looking outstanding under paint. I didn't recognize this in the first shots after the clean-up. Maybe you want to do a little tutorial showing your steps and tools? Alright, Joe and Tobi. Just for you guys! LOL  Since I don't have photos from the current build, I'm actually going to go all the way back to 2012 when I built the Ausf. A Late for the FSM Steel Cats GB as I did pretty much the same thing. The tools: A fairly coarse grit sanding stick or sponge (I used an Infini 400 grit sanding sponge) and a file (mine for this task is fairly aggressive with very pronounced corners).  (Note: These pics are from the aforementioned Ausf A.) 1. I use the sanding sponge to get rid of any seams or residual sprue gate and to just give it a general rough appearance. This may even be enough for some. 2. Using the file, I turn the wheel in my fingers while applying varying pressure to the file and drag it across the surface. I really just shoot for randomness while doing this. I vary the angles, pressure, direction, depth of the file strokes while turning the wheel in my hand. Id say I turn the wheel about 1/8 of a turn and drag the file back and forth doing all of those things. It's better to be a little gentle than too heavy handed as you can always add more damage. It really is that simple. It may take a bit of practice to get the random effect, but hey, they're frickin' road wheels.  Here it looks like I'm applying a lot of pressure. Also, keep in mind that this is a posed picture and not me actually doing what I did. But I think the general idea in conveyed. Hmmm.... looks vaguely familiar...  Anyway, I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, just let me know. I'd be happy to answer them. |
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Leon
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Post by Leon on Jul 1, 2023 7:35:16 GMT -5
Making some nice progress Dave!
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jul 1, 2023 7:41:26 GMT -5
Thanks a LOT for that Dave!!! +1 Karma to you. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your processes. Good to have you back in here with us buddy.
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 1, 2023 8:01:31 GMT -5
All righty, here we go. time to catch up a little bit on the posting. i haven't put in a ton of time at the bench as of late, but there is some progress that has been made.
So, first off, the tracks. I don't really know what to think right now as I've gone back and forth on my opinion of whether or not to use them. The actual links themselves look ok, but I don't like 1) having to glue in all the guide horns and 2) how said guide horns look when it's done. Honestly, I think for the main track runs it will be fine if there is sufficient weathering to the few areas that you may actually see this. But it would take a lot of work to get rid of these voids for say, spare tracks hung on the rear hull sides. So, I think I will attempt to use these for the main tracks and then some spares for the spares. LOL
(Left to right: Bronco, Friul, Meng)
MENG uses an approach to the hull that I have not yet experienced. There is a hull "shell" where the front and sides are attached. Like the real thing, the plates interlock at the joins. The parts are positively located by cutouts in the shell and raised boxes that fit into those cutouts on the sides and glacis.
All seems good!
And then I ran into this little conundrum.
The panels don't fit flush enough to eliminate the gaps at the plate overlaps and welds. Notice the gaps when viewing from the top. I had to go inch by inch using Tamiya Extra Thin and a lot of local pressure to rectify these gaps. My thumb tips are sore as Hell! LOL! It's pretty much impossible to use any type of clamp (at least that I possess) since the angles at these points are fairly complex. Anyway, after a lot of time and elbow grease, I was able to get it to where I'd say it's acceptable. There was only one spot (front glacis join) where the gap was too large for this method and I ended up filling with a little putty.
You can see the gap formed pretty well on the left side of the photo (hull starboard side). This is after attaching with glue. Right side of photo is after "fixing" the gap. It took a lot of attention to get everything looking good. But I do appreciate the detail put into it. I would almost prefer this engineering over the traditional hull if the fit in these overlap areas were a little better. Maybe there is a way to knock down some of the back of these parts before installation to better this? (I also found that the dry-fitting did not quite equal the glued part in these cases. The dry fit seemed a bit better, maybe because the part could still basically lift from the bottom to better accommodate the join area at the weld seams.)
Again, back part is "fixed" while the front still displays the gap. You can see how nicely the glacis joined up to the hull top plate here for contrast.
So, that's where things stand at the moment. I'm still working on the upper hull. Hoping to have more bench time and to catch up on all the other great builds going on. Happy 4th!
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jul 1, 2023 8:26:05 GMT -5
Man ......that IS crazy about the gaps on the sides Dave. It's interesting to see that time was taken by the manufacturer to have a "different" approach to the hull top/ sides fit and then your processes to get this puppy to where it's supposed to be in relation to fit. As far as the track links go.....my hat goes off to you guys for tackling those. I had my fun with the real things and just for the record......putting track blocks in was NO fun.
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Post by chromdome35 on Jul 1, 2023 8:46:15 GMT -5
I really appreciate your detailed posts! Thank you for taking the time to show your process on the road wheels. I don’t know how I feel about how they engineered the hull, looks overly complicated with no real benefit or ROI for the effort vs every other kit I’ve have seen.
Regardless you are crushing this.
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Post by Tobi on Jul 2, 2023 4:03:14 GMT -5
It must remain a mystery why some kit makers are providing modelers with such extra effort as the hull sides on this Panther model? I can't see where this would add to extra detail. The only possible explanation for me is, if you're going to do a cutaway model with interior, then it's somewhat easier. But for the average or beginner modeler it's just annoying don't you think?
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 2, 2023 6:55:11 GMT -5
It must remain a mystery why some kit makers are providing modelers with such extra effort as the hull sides on this Panther model? I can't see where this would add to extra detail. The only possible explanation for me is, if you're going to do a cutaway model with interior, then it's somewhat easier. But for the average or beginner modeler it's just annoying don't you think? The only reason I can think of for its use is to be able to incorporate different types. Then only the "panels" would have to be tooled and cast vs an entirely new upper hull? I honestly don't know either. More to come though as the turret uses the same approach. |
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jul 2, 2023 7:32:40 GMT -5
It must remain a mystery why some kit makers are providing modelers with such extra effort as the hull sides on this Panther model? I can't see where this would add to extra detail. The only possible explanation for me is, if you're going to do a cutaway model with interior, then it's somewhat easier. But for the average or beginner modeler it's just annoying don't you think? The only reason I can think of for its use is to be able to incorporate different types. Then only the "panels" would have to be tooled and cast vs an entirely new upper hull? I honestly don't know either. More to come though as the turret uses the same approach. That's an explanation that makes sense Dave. Looking forward to seeing what you do with the turret. |
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Post by deafpanzer on Jul 3, 2023 9:45:30 GMT -5
You have been making a great process while I was gone!!!
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 6, 2023 21:17:01 GMT -5
Ok, so I have to start getting some of this stuff in here or I'll just forget. So, here are some snippets and thoughts and pains from the last few days...
1. I got to getting the upper hull almost completed. I am at the stage now where I could mate the upper and lower hull. I am holding off because it may cause an issue with installing the tracks later on. The MENG tracks are not workable. They also want you to install the brackets for the side skirts right before (which I would want to do before paint anyway) and this would make putting the tracks on near impossible. I used workable tracks on both Panthers I built in the past, so I never even thought about it before. More to come on this one. So, do I buy AM workable tracks or find some clever way around this dilemma while still using the kit tracks?
2. I spent a LOT of time prettying up and detailing the rear spare track brackets (which are way out of scale, but whatever). I drilled holes through the brackets for pins. I drilled holes through the upper or lower portion of tracks for pins. I added my own bolts for the bracket attachment points. Instructions said they are included, but I couldn't find them. I filled in the gaps left where the track guide horns are fitted to the links. LOL I hope it was all worth it in the end!
Dry fit upper/lower hull.
3. I started working on the turret where some more issues with the kit reared their ugly little heads. Like the hull, the turret utilizes a "frame" where the top/bottom, front/back and sides are attached. The parts included in the kit make it somewhat clear that this strategy is used to enable several variants. There are a few different turret sides, etc., that would be used for late D's or early A's for instance. But I don't know that I am a fan of this strategy. Right off the bat the top stood a good 0.5 mm above the weld seam, which is part of the frame. I went with my first instinct and ended up grinding down the inside edges of the turret roof to get it more in line with where I think it should be. In hindsight, I suppose you could also trim out the weld seam part of the frame and just add them after the turret is constructed, but either way it was a lot of work for what should have been a very simple task.
Inside the turret frame with the roof, front and rear plate attached. If you look closely you can see where I ground down the edges.
Outside view with the roof plate lowered to the correct position. I'm sorry I don't have a pic of the actual issue before I rectified it.
I will say, however, that once I got the thing built it is pretty solid. Just not as trouble free as I would have liked. I apologize that I don't have any pics yet, but will include them next log post.
The 2nd issue with the turret is the cupola. Maybe you can identify the problem with this?
If you answered that it should be 1 contiguous piece, you just won yourself a cookie! It wouldn't be too bad, but the join is right smack in the middle of the observation slots. Just don't look on the inside edges. I'm sure it's way out of scale anyway. Nothing like a 100 mm thick armored cupola!
And, to top it all off, and the real kick in the arse since my Pz IV barrel was also wonky... check this out.
Once seen it cannot be unseen. The good news is that I have a couple options at the ready. There is a spare plastic barrel in the Cyber Hobby kit I built years ago that could work. I also have an Aber barrel in my stash that I could raid for this kit. Not sure what I will do yet, but I do know I'm not using the MENG barrel. Color me unimpressed.
Thanks for struggling along with me!
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jul 6, 2023 21:32:05 GMT -5
Talk about making something simple into something that's unnecessarily complicated. One wonders is Trumpeter had a hand in this one. Despite these difficulties, your perseverance is to be saluted and admired Dave. As for my input on the the tracks.....I'm no armor builder but from all the builds that I've watched come together and from what you're saying, it seems like the workable tracks would be a better option for you here. |
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Post by Tojo72 on Jul 6, 2023 21:57:20 GMT -5
Wow this has been a struggle,but its looking good.
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Joe Rix
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Post by Joe Rix on Jul 7, 2023 0:01:14 GMT -5
All I can say Dave is nice recovery on the turret. I am quite sure you will find further solutions for the other challenges. Although, that cupola seam would definitely leave me head scratching. Not quite sure why they would think that was a good idea. Your track rack looks excellent.
Sorry it is slow going for you but, you are making remarkable progress.
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Leon
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Post by Leon on Jul 7, 2023 2:43:39 GMT -5
Nice progress Dave despite the problems with the kit!
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Post by deafpanzer on Jul 7, 2023 19:27:23 GMT -5
WOW! I was surprised to see those faults for the Meng kit but you will make it work. I agree about not using the kit gun barrel so let's use the metal barrel for it. You totally kicked ass with the spare tracks rack... did you replace the plastic lock rods with metal ones? I can't think of the correct term right now... the 'L' shaped metal rods that secure the spare tracks.
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 7, 2023 20:27:34 GMT -5
WOW! I was surprised to see those faults for the Meng kit but you will make it work. I agree about not using the kit gun barrel so let's use the metal barrel for it. You totally kicked ass with the spare tracks rack... did you replace the plastic lock rods with metal ones? I can't think of the correct term right now... the 'L' shaped metal rods that secure the spare tracks. Well, me too! And thanks for the vote of confidence. Yeah, I'm building both barrels... but let's be honest, it will most likely end up being Aber. And yes, I believe 0.4 mm rod for the track retaining pins for those brackets. It's a detail that is completely missing from the kit. And thanks Joe, Tony, Joe and Leon. I appreciate the comments. And Joe R, this is my usual pace, so no worries from me! |
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 7, 2023 20:33:41 GMT -5
And I forgot, I do have a pic of the turret as it is currently. Made the hatch today. Looks like I need to touch up that front/left vision port a little.   I'm also not sure if I'm satisfied with the beefiness of the kit turret lifting loops. |
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Post by Tobi on Jul 8, 2023 0:16:23 GMT -5
One would think with all the praises Meng did receive for their earlier released modern armor kits, they would fare better on doing a Panther. The approach is unnecessarily complex and now that I see the flaws also grossly overpriced.
Luckily I bought only one of them and then went back to my Dragon and Tammys. I have a Takom though that came in a box with a Strabo crane.
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reserve
Senior Member
Member since: July 2012
Si vis pacem para bellum
Posts: 2,372
Jul 11, 2012 9:11:45 GMT -5
Jul 11, 2012 9:11:45 GMT -5
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Post by reserve on Jul 8, 2023 6:04:24 GMT -5
Watching this fight is enough to put me off of Meng for sure...I do have their Bergepanther in the stash and now wonder if it'll rest forever by the probably not to be built by me AFV Club M-60 kits.
Your perseverance is most admirable; I'd have probably tossed this into the garbage bucket with an uncouth snarl by now
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 10, 2023 11:12:20 GMT -5
One would think with all the praises Meng did receive for their earlier released modern armor kits, they would fare better on doing a Panther. The approach is unnecessarily complex and now that I see the flaws also grossly overpriced. Luckily I bought only one of them and then went back to my Dragon and Tammys. I have a Takom though that came in a box with a Strabo crane. Yes, I agree that it is definitely unnecessarily complex. I have no idea why gluing guide horns on tracks is a thing. Not only is that step extremely tedious - cutting from the sprue - cleaning and then building, but then you have to clean up anything you don't like. i.e., the little squares left when you glue these on. It's the main (read "only") reason my Leo 1A5 took me 3 years to finish. The kit itself is ok minus the things I've brought up. I'm guessing that the barrel thing isn't present in most kits - at least I wouldn't think so. It sure seems to be an unwanted theme that is developing for me lately, though. (Tracks and barrels) |
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 10, 2023 11:19:34 GMT -5
Watching this fight is enough to put me off of Meng for sure...I do have their Bergepanther in the stash and now wonder if it'll rest forever by the probably not to be built by me AFV Club M-60 kits. Your perseverance is most admirable; I'd have probably tossed this into the garbage bucket with an uncouth snarl by now Thanks, Mark. If I was totally dependent on the kit parts I may have just set it aside and started the RFM Panther G. But I really wanted to make an Operation Citadel early Panther D, so here we are. LOL, at least with the BP you don't have to worry about a barrel! I'm pretty sure that I have a couple more MENG kits in the stash where I may now be a little wary to ever start. I think a T-90 and a M1A2. We'll see, but I'd bet top dollar right now that those M1A2 tracks are very similar to the Leopard 1A5 ones that I despise so much. |
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Post by Tojo72 on Jul 10, 2023 11:20:43 GMT -5
Interesting that this kit is problematic,one of the best kits I ever but was their T-90,I also enjoyed their Merkava 4 and M1A1.
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 10, 2023 11:47:31 GMT -5
Ok, so... where are we? Well, I suppose I'm getting fairly close to finishing most of the building portion. I really haven't decided on whether or not I will torture myself with the kit tracks. I probably won't. Time = money they say. So, I will probably buy some RFM AM tracks. If I can find them. Since casual perusing of my favorite online HS show all out of stock. LOL - I hope I don't have to wait long! But at least going AM will also solve the upper/lower hull join problem with the side skirt brackets installed. As if I need more justification...
A little dry fitting to see how it will look when done. Hey! It looks like a Panther! I'll be fitting the smoke grenade launchers on this one.
And no, I haven't decided to use the Dragon spare I had for the barrel. I had attached the MENG muzzle brake to the Dragon Barrel just to see how it is. But ya know, once you go Aber, you never go... something... LOL Of note is the difference in barrel length between the manufacturers. Who has it correct? If I knew definitively where to do the measurements, I would tell ya. But all are within the realm of possibility. The MENG wouldn't look too short and I don't think the Aber will look too long. (It's ~ 2.0 mm longer than the Dragon with the muzzle brakes being about the same size.)
Yeah, there's no comparison.
After much fiddling around I was able to solder the vast majority of this thing, which is a first for me. I used CA only on the join of the brake to the barrel itself and on those tiny little plates and nut head on the upper brake. LOL - I tried and failed too many times to keep going!
I have to say that I'm quite happy with the way it turned out. Now I just have to figure out a way to get it installed properly. The kit uses a semi-circle pin/hole arrangement. The hole is reinforced on the backside (inside the mantlet). I need to figure out how to get rid of that reinforcement and then make the semi-circle a round hole. Wish me luck!
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Post by chromdome35 on Jul 10, 2023 12:07:25 GMT -5
What a great build thread you have going. Way to preserve through the challenges. I prefer the metal barrels in almost all cases.
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Post by hasenpfeffer on Jul 10, 2023 12:37:16 GMT -5
Interesting that this kit is problematic,one of the best kits I ever but was their T-90,I also enjoyed their Merkava 4 and M1A1. Hey Tony, I don't know if I'd say problematic? I would say maybe that there are a lot of things that just take more time and effort than some other kits. The only real issue has been the pinched barrel. There's a good possibility that it could just be a short run of kits before it was rectified. It certainly wasn't engineered to be that way. You can see that once it's put together, it's a pretty good looking and well detailed representation. The other stuff is just me bitching about a needless over-complexity in some of the design features. i.e., There is no need to have the modeler put together 3 parts to form 1 track link. I mean, 87 links per side x2 sides x3 parts. (over 500!) None of which are easy to handle. Not needed! Dislike! So some of it just seems to be designed for a masochist who likes to assemble every minute detail. I love detail, but I don't want to spend an eternity putting together track runs. There are way better ways. I guess I just get the impression that sometimes I am only complaining about the kit. That really isn't my intention overall. I suppose maybe just to raise awareness to not expect it to fall together like Tamiya kits seem to. End of incoherent rambling. LOL That being said, I also have the T-90A and a M1A2. |
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Post by deafpanzer on Jul 10, 2023 13:23:55 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with Brian... metal barrel all the way especially in your case. I hope it won't be too complicated for you to attach it to the turret. If I had to do that to my RFM kit, it won't be that easy either so that's why I opted to use the kit barrel and fortunately it was very good and in ONE piece!
Keep up with the great work buddy!
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