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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 28, 2024 6:06:55 GMT -5
Just a short trip down memory lane and an explanation for why I prefer oils over acrylics when it comes to painting figures. It all boils down to personal preference and what works best for each of us, but I’ve been asked this question many times, “which paint do I use?” So, I thought I would relate my personal experience and explain why I’m an oiler and why I am “not” a fan of acrylics, when it comes to painting figures. I’ve had comments from some guys who want to venture into painting figures, but they don’t know which paint to use or even how to get started, and some are looking at alternatives to how they paint now. Whichever route one takes, make sure you’re having fun in the process, because that’s what this is all about. Some of us may remember long before acrylics became popular in this hobby the only real model paints were enamels. I’m really not completely up to speed on the history of acrylics other than to say I do know there were some available, but I remember that was mainly coming from the model railroad community. They certainly weren’t as high quality as they are today, but they were an alternative I rarely ever used. Well, hat’s off to Shep Paine, and a few others, for getting a lot of us fired up for this hobby. He taught us a lot, but I only remember using enamels for pretty much the entire diorama. Not really thinking much of it, I used enamels for kits and figures alike. That was pretty much all I knew when I was a kid in the 70’s just learning how to paint anything. Then, in the early nineties, when I finally found time to get back into modeling, I was becoming frustrated with the lengthy time process required to paint figures and I was very frustrated with having to try to make those enamels blend together realistically. One day, while visiting a local hobby shop, I was chatting with the owner and expressing my frustration when a customer overheard our conversation and suggested I try using artist oils. I was in the middle painting Verlinden’s Adolf Galland, so I decided to give it a try. What did I have to lose, nothing. After picking up a basic line-up of artist oils I started on the trousers and then the leather jacket on the Galland figure. Wow, was I impressed with the ease of blending the oils and the realistic appearance of the results. That was awesome and I was hooked! Once again, I retreated from the hobby in the mid-nineties due to work and life in general, but I did return in the early 2000’s to find that acrylics were becoming more popular for painting figures and kits. I never gave it much thought and continued working my oils. When I finally did take notice at the results some guys and gals were getting from acrylics I was impressed, but why didn’t I give it a try? Well, the first thing I noticed with this new paint medium being used to paint figures was the constant layering required to develop the tones needed, as well as the need to keep the paints in a wet state. It was an instant turn off for me and gave me flashbacks to my old enamel days. Besides, I was happy with my results and my skills were steadily progressing. I really enjoyed how the oils blended vs the thought of constant layering required with acrylics. My thoughts were, and still are, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Below is a time progression using oils rather than acrylics. The first bust is pretty ruff, but things begin to improve over time. It’s that “practice” thing again. Painting with oils is like anything else in this hobby, it takes time and a lot of practice. Some guys and gals are just plain “born naturals”, they make it look easy, and I look to them for inspiration. No, they weren’t born with a brush in their hands, but it sure makes ya wonder, sometimes. Lol. There are quite a few acrylics figure painters who have taken this hobby to a new level of realism that is tough to beat. A cursory look at Putty&Paint.com will have your jaw dropping in short order, it’s crazy. Yes, some painters prefer the exaggerated appearance of highlights and shadows, but then there are also quite a few who have mastered the art so well you’d be hard pressed to not believe what you are looking at is a real person. Perfect example, Mike_the_Kiwi, from New Zealand. If I can ever learn to get even close to his realism, I’ll be a happy camper. Mike uses acrylics, and as I stated earlier, I am not a fan of acrylics at all, when it comes to painting figures. A lot of Mike’s work can be viewed at PlanetFigure.com. This one figure should give you an idea of just how far the realism can be taken. www.planetfigure.com/threads/mikes-28th-maori-bn-sgt-finished.55883/So, hopefully this short little blurp on “oils vs acrylics” will help someone decide to take the step to start painting figures and enjoy the process. Whichever paint medium you decide to use, work it hard, learn as much as you can, and remember, practice, practice, practice. Lastly, go look at the sites mentioned above and study the photos carefully. You really can learn a lot just by carefully observing someone else’s work, especially the masters in this hobby. Thanks for listenin. Cheers, Ski.
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reserve
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Post by reserve on Jan 28, 2024 7:57:01 GMT -5
Myself I'm a long way from a good figure painter. I used to get halfway acceptable results with enamels but was never able to get them to blend well usually I'd get down to primer or bare plastic with a dab or two of the brush when trying. Acrylics for me are worse since the dry so fast. With the virtual disapperance of enamel model paint here lately I've been forced to acrylics but am perplexed at how some guys get the results they do with them.
Oils are great for many things but I'm unwilling to spend let's say a month to paint up a tank crew thus I've never learned how to use them well for that application.
The thing is, I think, that I've never really enjoyed figures like some do. I see them as a necessary evil to give my beloved armor vignettes and dioramas a spark of life and scale. This means I almost resent the time I have to spend on them unlike yourself who obviously likes doing this alot given the wonderous results you always produce.
Yer right, that Maori soldier is unbeliveably realistic
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kyledehart5
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Post by kyledehart5 on Jan 28, 2024 8:14:49 GMT -5
Your own work is incredible in itself. I don’t know how you do it. But I sure find it very easy to admire your work as you move along with your projects.
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Post by lyle on Jan 28, 2024 8:16:21 GMT -5
Good explanation. Magnificent figure painting.
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Post by adt70hk on Jan 28, 2024 8:18:49 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your journey Steve. It's great to see the progress you have made.
ATB
Andrew
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Post by chromdome35 on Jan 28, 2024 11:39:12 GMT -5
Steve, I've always admired your figure painting work, and just when I think it can't get any better, you bestow us with your next build, and the bar is reset yet again.
This is how we all look at you.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
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Post by keavdog on Jan 28, 2024 12:08:47 GMT -5
I never could blend enamels and shy away from most acrylics (water based). I like to do base coats in enamel and shadows & hilites etc with oils for all the reasons you call out. I started with Verlinden "The System" figure painting. I started attending SCAHMS local meetings in San Diego and learned a lot. Even went up to a couple LA shows and bumped into folks like John Rozengrant and Bill Horan. I had a break from modeling for 4 or 5 years that ending 10 years ago but I haven't done a figure since except 1/48 pilots. I feel I'll have to relearn it all, or hopefully it's like riding a bike That figure you gave a link to is exceptional. You almost feel the texture of his coat looking at - amazing. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Joe Rix on Jan 28, 2024 12:10:40 GMT -5
Absolutely outstanding post Steve. Although I am not a figure painter, I took a lot away from your analysis and process. I find your technique and your results to be truly remarkable. And you are entirely correct in emphasizing the need to practice, practice, practice. You will be to receiving some positive Karma for your informative post.
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 28, 2024 12:10:41 GMT -5
Thank you, Gentlemen. Mark, I understand what you're saying, Brother. Since I spend so much time on figures my "other kit" skills take a back seat. I've never built a Shermie, because I already know it wouldn't be accurate and the time it takes to get up to speed on just that one rig alone would drive me bonkers, lol. There are too many variables, but not so much with other tanks, trucks, or even A/C. And yes, Mike is one of my favorite figure painters, if not the best I've ever seen. Thanks, Kyle. I appreciate the kind comments. Lyle, thank you, sir! Andrew, thanks, Buddy Sir Brian, thank you. I try to keep improving and not get too discouraged when things go wonky, but I always remember, this is a fun hobby, and that keeps me pushing forward. One aspect I neglected to mention was photography and the need for decent equipment. I know phone cameras work great nowadays, but as someone who only has a flip phone on purpose, I find that digital cameras do take time to master and can make or break a good build. Luckily, youtube is our friend in many areas of this hobby, so learning to take great pics is not unobtainable. The intention of this short article is to help those on the fence and hopefully I've made things a little clearer for someone. Try either method and let er rip. So, if this little explanation helps someone take the deep dive, I'm good, it's just too much fun! All that to say this; If I can do it, so can you, or anyone else who really wants to. Thanks, Gents!
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 28, 2024 12:19:38 GMT -5
I never could blend enamels and shy away from most acrylics (water based). I like to do base coats in enamel and shadows & hilites etc with oils for all the reasons you call out. I started with Verlinden "The System" figure painting. I started attending SCAHMS local meetings in San Diego and learned a lot. Even went up to a couple LA shows and bumped into folks like John Rozengrant and Bill Horan. I had a break from modeling for 4 or 5 years that ending 10 years ago but I haven't done a figure since except 1/48 pilots. I feel I'll have to relearn it all, or hopefully it's like riding a bike That figure you gave a link to is exceptional. You almost feel the texture of his coat looking at - amazing. Thanks for sharing. Hey, Keavdog, funny thing, I was in SD from 97-02, musta missed ya somewhere, lol. You know the journey well then, never too late to dip those toes back into the pool, the water is warm, HA! Go for it Now, running into John Rosengrandt or even Bill Horan would have been way past worth the price of admition, ya lucky feller. Wow! Absolutely outstanding post Steve. Although I am not a figure painter, I took a lot away from your analysis and process. I find your technique and your results to be truly remarkable. And you are entirely correct in emphasizing the need to practice, practice, practice. You will be to receiving some positive Karma for your informative post. Thank you, Joe. Painting figures is not for everyone, like cars a tough for me, honestly, but a nudge in the right direction just might give someone the urge to try it. I was hoping my explanation was making some sense, so it's good to know yall are understanding it.
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stikpusher
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Post by stikpusher on Jan 28, 2024 19:24:13 GMT -5
Funny how you put this out Ski now as well as you and John mentioning SCAHMS. Last weekend at out monthly AMPS meeting we had a guy who used to be in SCAHMS give us a class on painting faces with acrylics. As he put it, you'll have to paint at least a hundred faces before you get one that you're happy with. And after painting a dozen or so that day, yup, he is right. But at least now I feel a bit more confident, though nowhere near competent trying what was shown in the class. The wet palette is a key to using acrylics. I've also found that using Vallejo Glaze Medium with their paints is a nice alternate method as well. Works in a way similar to washes.
Thanks for the links!
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Post by stuartv on Jan 29, 2024 7:45:49 GMT -5
Steve,
Great post, I used to paint figures with oil 25 years ago and they are excellent but take ages to dry.
When I recently got back into the hobby I thought I would give Vallejo acrylics a try, I watched lots of videos on YouTube and then gave it a go. The acrylics suit the way I like to paint, I enjoy the layering and blending and I find it is easy to adjust the colour with additional layers. You can control the drying time using Vallejo retarder and glaze medium so blending can be achieved relatively easily. With my latest Flak 37 crew, I like the fact that when I have posted a photo and look back the following day and I think that figure needs a bit more blending, I can dab some water on the colour on the wet palette and continue the blend process.
I might give the oils a go again in future, as I still have them and they are good after 25 years?
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 29, 2024 9:54:33 GMT -5
Funny how you put this out Ski now as well as you and John mentioning SCAHMS. Last weekend at out monthly AMPS meeting we had a guy who used to be in SCAHMS give us a class on painting faces with acrylics. As he put it, you'll have to paint at least a hundred faces before you get one that you're happy with. And after painting a dozen or so that day, yup, he is right. But at least now I feel a bit more confident, though nowhere near competent trying what was shown in the class. The wet palette is a key to using acrylics. I've also found that using Vallejo Glaze Medium with their paints is a nice alternate method as well. Works in a way similar to washes. Thanks for the links! Sounds like a great class, Carlos. I might tend to disagree with his analysis on the 100 faces, though. I don’t think I’ve come close to that, but I haven’t gone back to count, lol. If we’re talking large scale faces, I’m way under 100. This may be the difference between both when making a decision of which medium to use. I went through Mark Bannerman’s articles on Missing-Lynx many moons ago, (at least 10-12yrs ago, maybe more), and got great results very quickly using oils, then I developed my own techniques from there. I was able to dig this up on the net, check it out, very helpful, imho. www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbface/mbface.htmwww.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbpart2/mbpart2.htmwww.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbheads/mbheads.htmminiature-inspiration.blogspot.com/2009/04/mark-bannerman.htmlThese articles alone may help you and others cut the learning curve down considerably, if you care to venture back to the “light side”. I jokingly call acrylic painting the “dark side”, because I just can’t imagine going that route, personally, lol. I like how you mentioned the glaze medium, a very useful tool, and I totally forgot about that. If the acrylics are working for you, I say run with it. Like you said, it’s the confidence level that increases the more you do it. If someone wants to get to a comfortable level using either acrylics or oils, it’s just a matter of practice. Great input, Carlos, thanks, Me Hermano!
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Post by stuartv on Jan 29, 2024 10:23:59 GMT -5
Vallejo or other glaze medium is really important for layering and blending with acrylics. Here is a good YouTube video, it is for fantasy figures but very relevant for all figure paining. www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13JfFJxtIg
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 29, 2024 11:00:16 GMT -5
Steve, Great post, I used to paint figures with oil 25 years ago and they are excellent but take ages to dry. When I recently got back into the hobby I thought I would give Vallejo acrylics a try, I watched lots of videos on YouTube and then gave it a go. The acrylics suit the way I like to paint, I enjoy the layering and blending and I find it is easy to adjust the colour with additional layers. You can control the drying time using retarders so blending can be achieved relatively easily. With my latest Flak 37 crew, I like the fact that when I have posted a photo and look back the following day and I think that figure needs a bit more blending, I can dab some water on the colour on the wet palette and continue the blend process. I might give the oils a go again in future, as I still have them and they are good after 25 years? You, my friend, have already mastered the “dark side” of painting figures and I really like your results. I know acrylics, and the tools for using them, have come a long way and your input gives others a view from an acrylic painter. I know quite a few former oilers who have crossed over to the dark side and their talents have exploded, Mike_the_Kiwi being one of them, Kaz being another, just to name a few. You mentioned drying time for oils is long, and it certainly can be, but over time I’ve learned to use good ‘ol paint thinner with my oils and have cut that drying time down considerable. One issue I see that acrylics have an advantage over oils today is the sheen, or glare, when painting. That glare alone can be difficult to discern tones properly and can actually bend the colors in the opposite direction, so to speak. Meaning, when you think it’s looking ok, but it’s gone south on you, it will need to be addressed again later. My greatest issue with acrylics personally is the constant layering vs blending and the advantage of drying time to do just that, blend. I’ve even begun to incorporate some oil canvas painter’s techniques into my figure painting with great results, specifically Daria Callie’s face painting. The link is below. www.youtube.com/channel/UCyGgRLbgcXjON9ZS5DaqMOQNot to get too long winded here, sorry for that Stuart, but getting a textured effects is not as easy with oils as it is with acrylics. Belts, coats, scarfs, etc., all can have a textured effect using acrylics very simply by stippling, jabbing, etc., but oils are a completely different story. I’ve seen one oiler make it work to good effect, but it’s an area I still need to learn and practice extensively. The thread below is a tutorial of a USAAF Pilot bust, and the texturing effect using oils is on the last page of the SBS. This is a rather lengthy process, but it adds serious depth to the figure. www.planetfigure.com/threads/usaaf-pilot-bust-conversion.531981/Great comments, Stuart, and thanks for chiming in. It’s always great to get input from the other side of the paint realm. You, being a prior oiler, have the advantage of seeing it from both sides and that’s a plus added to this conversation. Ruck On, cheers, Ski.
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Post by roland66 on Jan 29, 2024 11:49:34 GMT -5
Very interesting, thank you for that. I only paint figures in acrylic. I use a drying retarder from Amsterdam, which allows me to blend the colors very well.
However, you have to dry the colors properly, if necessary with a hairdryer, otherwise you will pull them off again.
i usually use Vallejo, sometimes also Scale75. The SC75 colors are different from Vallejo, you have to use the thinner, but then they blend very well.
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Post by stuartv on Jan 29, 2024 12:20:47 GMT -5
Steve,
I think a lot has to do with how you like to paint. When I used to try to paint figures with enamels, I used to want to layer and blend them but that was just about impossible with enamel paint. At that point I turned to oils and the blending was easy with oils, but not so easy to layer as you tend to drag the colour you are layering unless you allow it to fully dry first (which takes time).
The advantage I find with acrylics and the faster drying time is you can both blend and layer using glazing medium and retarder. For blending you can slow the paint drying down just enough to achieve blending 2 or more colours together as with oils. For layering you can make the paint almost completely translucent with just a hint of pigment. You wait 5-10 minutes and can then add another layer and so on.
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 29, 2024 13:26:09 GMT -5
Great points, Gents, and more excellent intel for beginners or even the old hats like us. Whichever works best is what one will always do, and I appreciate the added input from everyone.
P.S. Roland, those old hairdryers are a must in every model bunker, just don't steal the wife's new one, HA!
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roland66
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Post by roland66 on Jan 29, 2024 16:00:43 GMT -5
No no, I only ever get the oldest....... So, my wife has a hairdressing business......
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Post by dodgy on Jan 29, 2024 17:26:51 GMT -5
Steve that was one of the most enjoyable posts I've read in a long time. Enjoyable and informative. The extra information and experiences offered by others and the links you provided were simply wonderful. I kid myself that I'm a figure modeller and then I look at work like yours and realise how far I've got to go. I've been into figure modelling since Tamiya released their first pack of 35th scale figures back when Noah was a cabin boy, but before that it was the Airfix HO/OO soldier sets. Initially it was all enamels, but then came Napoleonics and oils. Now I undercoat in enamels similar to the colour I want and finish in oils. I tried acrylics, but they didn't do it for me. It's been a wonderful journey so far and your article bought back many memories of wonderful modellers like Bill Horan and many others. Those Historex catalogues from the 80s? Wow!! The painted Napoleonic figures and horses were simply amazing and so inspiring. Hopefully folks will read your post and also be inspired, wether to the dark side, or the light, it really doesn't matter.
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 29, 2024 21:03:54 GMT -5
Steve that was one of the most enjoyable posts I've read in a long time. Enjoyable and informative. The extra information and experiences offered by others and the links you provided were simply wonderful. I kid myself that I'm a figure modeller and then I look at work like yours and realise how far I've got to go. I've been into figure modelling since Tamiya released their first pack of 35th scale figures back when Noah was a cabin boy, but before that it was the Airfix HO/OO soldier sets. Initially it was all enamels, but then came Napoleonics and oils. Now I undercoat in enamels similar to the colour I want and finish in oils. I tried acrylics, but they didn't do it for me. It's been a wonderful journey so far and your article bought back many memories of wonderful modellers like Bill Horan and many others. Those Historex catalogues from the 80s? Wow!! The painted Napoleonic figures and horses were simply amazing and so inspiring. Hopefully folks will read your post and also be inspired, wether to the dark side, or the light, it really doesn't matter. Hey, Buddy, you just nailed it, getting others inspired like we did, and who really cares how well we do or how far we have to go. Life has always been a journey, and that is the fun part, not always the destination, imho. We may not agree with the "All Mighty" as to where he puts us, but we work with the hand we've been dealt, so to speak, and carry on. I really am glad you've decided to join this "band of misfits", as someone has so eloquently mentioned in the Username and avatar thread, (dang me, I've already forgotten who, sheesh!), and gottin into the groove of things here. Great crew, fun guys, and no Bravo Sierra. We're just guys who like to, as I always say, "Keep sniffin paint and gluin them fingers togetherr", cause IMHO, it's da bomb! Welcome to the club, Dodgy!!!
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Post by dodgy on Jan 30, 2024 21:00:24 GMT -5
Ta mate, I'm loving this site.
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Post by aaronw on Jan 30, 2024 21:46:16 GMT -5
Awesome figure work.
Sorry if this is over simplification, but I think it comes down to most people don't like change and we like what we like. We will occasionally court change when we are not happy with the status quo, but otherwise, Get off my lawn!
This goes beyond what paints and extends to which techniques we choose. Some like heavy shading, others take the approach if you notice it, then you did too much.
I remember using acrylic Polly S in the late 70s or early 80s. Wasn't a fan I don't know how much was the paint vs I was used to enamels (mostly Humbrol, Pactra and Model Master). I took a break in the late 80s and 90s, coming back in 1999-2000. As I was pretty much starting over and needed to buy new paints, tools etc, I decided to try out the "new" acrylics that seemed to be have gained in popularity during my absence. Maybe it was having to learn all over again and blaming my teething problems on being rusty rather than the paints but I adapted to acrylics easily and now am quite happy using them. My Dad is also a modeler and he has remained loyal to his enamels.
There is definitely a different technique to using the much faster drying acrylics, but the odors and clean up are so much simpler when there are others in the house to worry about and your "bench" is a TV tray table (I got married in 1999 and we had our first child in 2000, so my return to modeling went along with a change in life style). There is also a large variation in behavior even between paint families. All acrylics are not equal, some dry faster than others, some remain solid painting over themselves while others are self thinning which can make touch ups a real mess. Some are best thinned with alcohol or their own proprietary thinner, while others do just fine thinning with distilled or even tap water.
Perhaps an oddity but I also use oils. Artist oils do not react with acrylics so for me are a great detail enhancer. Their long drying time also makes them great for certain applications like wood graining, and shading. As I often use them for final detailing, leaving them to dry for as much as few days is not a major inconvenience to me.
Then there are the additives, primarily retarders and accelerators which add some complexity, but can make a huge difference.
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Green KreationZ
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Post by Green KreationZ on Jan 30, 2024 22:35:30 GMT -5
Really great and informative write up!
I haven’t considered using oils for painting my figures, but maybe I’ll give it a go. I typically use oil for weathering or to make diorama. My issue is; I make 1/48 models. The figures I paint have a 2-3mm face lol
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kyledehart5
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Post by kyledehart5 on Jan 30, 2024 22:43:16 GMT -5
All this information in this thread. It’s wonderful. Sort of thinking I should pick up some oils to try out sometime.
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Post by dodgy on Jan 31, 2024 5:33:00 GMT -5
Oils are like any other paints. Practice, practice, practice. It's what Ski said and no matter what you're using, that's the bible.
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Post by 406 Silverado on Jan 31, 2024 5:37:52 GMT -5
I've seen this thread here and there over the past couple of days and just now looked in on it (I know....shame on me) but I'll be coming back to this for reference as it's getting bookmarked. Thank you for putting this together Steve as it's very helpful.
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 31, 2024 11:39:22 GMT -5
Sorry if this is over simplification, but I think it comes down to most people don't like change and we like what we like. We will occasionally court change when we are not happy with the status quo, but otherwise, Get off my lawn! Yep, well said. And no, you're really not an oddity, many guys do the same. I am slowly seeing some guys switch back to oils over time. It's a personal preference, and some just don't like change, like you said, T'sall good. Really great and informative write up! I haven’t considered using oils for painting my figures, but maybe I’ll give it a go. I typically use oil for weathering or to make diorama. My issue is; I make 1/48 models. The figures I paint have a 2-3mm face lol Well, Brother, that was why I posted the artcile, so you can decide if you waqnna try it. I will, however suggest working in large scale so you can see your results quickly. Working those little guys is tough even for me, so don't think you're alone on that. This quick exercise was done while watching Daria's videos on painting the eye. the tones are off, but the concept is the same, 3D or 2D, works the same, imho. www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QapONEamQgAll this information in this thread. It’s wonderful. Sort of thinking I should pick up some oils to try out sometime. Post em when ya got em and if you need an assist, I'll do my best to help you along. Oils are like any other paints. Practice, practice, practice. It's what Ski said and no matter what you're using, that's the bible. Well said, and my point is "blending vs layering", you decide. I've seen this thread here and there over the past couple of days and just now looked in on it (I know....shame on me) but I'll be coming back to this for reference as it's getting bookmarked. Thank you for putting this together Steve as it's very helpful. Youbetcha, Joe!
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Post by Steve Zuleski on Jan 31, 2024 11:59:25 GMT -5
I've seen this thread here and there over the past couple of days and just now looked in on it (I know....shame on me) but I'll be coming back to this for reference as it's getting bookmarked. Thank you for putting this together Steve as it's very helpful. Youbetcha, Joe. Thanks, Amigo!
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Post by Leon on Jan 31, 2024 12:03:54 GMT -5
Thanks for posting a great thread Steve! I'm not a figure painter but learned a lot here.
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