A thought on " rivet counters"

[tcoat]

Aug 19, 2024 9:27:59 GMT -5 brandonk said:

Aug 19, 2024 5:51:27 GMT -5 tcoat said:

That swing probably peaked around 10 years ago. Now that aging population (say the 60 to 80 year range) are headed into retirement (and the fixed income that sometimes means), losing the ability to even build models or are no longer with us at all so the market will no longer be driven by us. In the next 10 or 15 years there will be almost nobody left in the hobby that remembers going and buying a kit at the corner store for $2.
The hobby however is far from dead and things such as 3D printing, easy availability of kits and aftermarket parts due the internet and forums such as this show that it is in fact still growing. The next generation of modelers (say the current 40 to 60 year old's) may still have a bit of sticker shock at the rising prices but you can bet that the group following them won't even bat an eye at $100+ since it will be all that they ever knew and the norm not the exception. Not long ago in my local shop I saw a teenager pick up a new(ish) release of the old Monogram Mitchel kit and say "How about this one dad it is only $40". I remember that kit at being $5 and as recently as 10 years ago Michaels had it for $15 but to him $40 was dirt cheap. 

Good point. One of the biggest reasons I have the stash that I do is I know that one day I won't be able to afford the kits and having them on hand as I get older will make building them easier as I will already own plenty.

Ahhh but how many people have that state of the art kit from 1985 in their stash but then a better one of the same thing from 2005 and yet another better one from 2020? Stashes have kept the industry going for decades. I have a very small stash yet doubt I could build them all in 10 years.

[keavdog]

So guilty of this ^^^

[tcoat]

Aug 19, 2024 10:09:27 GMT -5 keavdog said:

So guilty of this ^^^

[Steve Zuleski]

Aug 18, 2024 13:34:18 GMT -5 tcoat said:

I had a judge at a show say he couldn't properly assess the lines on my Mustang because it was broken up! It is a Tamiya kit so how would the "lines" be off any more than the other 6 that were on the table?

Yep, seen that too. Car guys judging dios,............NOT, but it happens. IPMS Seattle, 2012, two car guys had no clue what was going on with my Texas Ranger dio, the gun Trucks. I was close by watching them and heard them say they were confused, so I had to give them a slight history lesson on Nam gun trucks. Poor clueless buggers, HA!

When contests are short on judges, we're going to see this, unfortunately, and they have no business counting rivets at that point.

[Medicman71]

Aug 19, 2024 10:24:47 GMT -5 Steve Zuleski said:

Aug 18, 2024 13:34:18 GMT -5 tcoat said:

I had a judge at a show say he couldn't properly assess the lines on my Mustang because it was broken up! It is a Tamiya kit so how would the "lines" be off any more than the other 6 that were on the table?

Yep, seen that too. Car guys judging dios,............NOT, but it happens. IPMS Seattle, 2012, two car guys had no clue what was going on with my Texas Ranger dio, the gun Trucks. I was close by watching them and heard them say they were confused, so I had to give them a slight history lesson on Nam gun trucks. Poor clueless buggers, HA!

When contests are short on judges, we're going to see this, unfortunately, and they have no business counting rivets at that point.

Earlier this year at my local show, I was asked to be the head judge for the Sci-Fi category. Since I build and know a little of it, I felt confident that I could judge the category. Then I was asked to help in the armor category and this is where I almost lost my s*** with them. The whole "inconsistent weathering" thing really pisses me off. For example, there was an armored truck (car?) that was painted in a camo. The builder had done what I thought was some awesome weathering. Well apparently not. There were two "doors/hatches" on the roof that had some wear that was down to the metal under the camo. Now it was different on each door like it would be in real life. The two other judges were saying that it was inconsistent and took points off. WHAT??? Nothing EVER weathers the same!! I had to leave because I couldn't deal with the idiots. 

[Steve Zuleski]

Aug 20, 2024 8:54:49 GMT -5 Medicman71 said:

The two other judges were saying that it was inconsistent and took points off. WHAT??? Nothing EVER weathers the same!! I had to leave because I couldn't deal with the idiots. 

I hear ya, Brother. Maybe this is just me, but I would have addressed these two, politely of course, and corrected their error. If we don't do it when we have an opportunity to do so, these guys will never get a clue, and the whole sham will continue. Some will actually appreciate the correction if their head is screwed on correctly, and some won't care.

These two I dealt with were good at listening so I was confident they actually learned something, and that is a step in the right direction. I'm done with any competitions myself, but I'll go if I get a chance, no doubt. I'd rather relax and enjoy the incredible work and not worry about my work on the table, so to speak.

[Medicman71]

Aug 20, 2024 10:38:20 GMT -5 Steve Zuleski said:

Aug 20, 2024 8:54:49 GMT -5 Medicman71 said:

The two other judges were saying that it was inconsistent and took points off. WHAT??? Nothing EVER weathers the same!! I had to leave because I couldn't deal with the idiots. 

I hear ya, Brother. Maybe this is just me, but I would have addressed these two, politely of course, and corrected their error. If we don't do it when we have an opportunity to do so, these guys will never get a clue, and the whole sham will continue. Some will actually appreciate the correction if their head is screwed on correctly, and some won't care.

These two I dealt with were good at listening so I was confident they actually learned something, and that is a step in the right direction. I'm done with any competitions myself, but I'll go if I get a chance, no doubt. I'd rather relax and enjoy the incredible work and not worry about my work on the table, so to speak.

I did say something but it fell on deaf ears and everyone (most of the judges) know I'm not an armor guy. But the whole "inconsistent weathering" thing was happening in the aircraft category as well. One guy that had an Israeli F-15E that was absolutely gorgeous. They took points off for..........."inconsistent weathering".

[Steve Zuleski]

That's a bummer,..........

[paddy]

OK, i will be controversial :-) Tin hats on Chaps, those with a week disposition take cover !!!

My gripe with rivet counters is..they usually have no interest at all in the model they are criticizing. they couldn't care less.
What they are really doing is having a jackwagon waving competition with other rivet counters. they are laying out their basket for other rivet counters to say, i know better than you. Most of them use a criticism of your model to get a foothold in your thread. The reality is they probably couldn't do any better themselves because the real skill is not knowing there is 15 rivets on a wing gun panel, its being able to add those 15 rivets too that gun panel...

sorry but i am a Brit, exiled here on a couple of US sites because i got sick to death of having everything i did, dissected and pulled apart by Britmodeller.com
and the likes. In short, if you can do better then i am more than happy to take all the advice you can give and be grateful. If you are here to hijack my thread by belittling my efforts just to show off your knowledge i dont have any time for you. The purpose of most rivet counters intervention is not "Constructive" criticism, its a destructive ego trip on their part

Ok you can come out now shall i get my coat ?

[paddy]

Aug 18, 2024 13:34:18 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Aug 18, 2024 13:22:45 GMT -5 TJ said:

The one thing that drives me batty is when a supposed expert tries to ding a build for something that is correct on the build. I was at a show a few years ago and overheard a guy dinging a P-51A Mustang because the builder did not droop the landing gear doors, because all Mustangs doors droop after shut down. I, very nicely, put him in his place, by letting him know that Allison engine Mustangs had a different lock system on the doors so no they don't droop like the Merlin engined. He bit his lip and moved on.

If you don't know don't judge or ask

I had a judge at a show say he couldn't properly assess the lines on my Mustang because it was broken up! It is a Tamiya kit so how would the "lines" be off any more than the other 6 that were on the table?





The base even had the pictures for crying out loud.


 

Love this, originality and creativity rolled into one. One look and you know someone had a brilliant time making this and thats what its all about..

[tcoat]

Aug 17, 2024 13:42:11 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Aug 17, 2024 13:10:25 GMT -5 2whl said:

I have learned to ignore the rivet counters.   I build for me and my own enjoyment.  But I do like to make fun of them.....

Oh the colour critics drive me nuts more than rivet counters ever would! Especially the WW2 stuff where paints were mixed by hand at factories or in the field so the “standard” was more of a recommendation than a rule and close enough was the business of the day.  I left a forum that our UK friends probably know of after being completely ridiculed because my Ardo floatplane was a tone too beige and not green enough according to a written description of the true colour.  

Aug 20, 2024 13:14:47 GMT -5 paddy said:

OK, i will be controversial :-) Tin hats on Chaps, those with a week disposition take cover !!!

My gripe with rivet counters is..they usually have no interest at all in the model they are criticizing. they couldn't care less.
What they are really doing is having a jackwagon waving competition with other rivet counters. they are laying out their basket for other rivet counters to say, i know better than you. Most of them use a criticism of your model to get a foothold in your thread. The reality is they probably couldn't do any better themselves because the real skill is not knowing there is 15 rivets on a wing gun panel, its being able to add those 15 rivets too that gun panel...

sorry but i am a Brit, exiled here on a couple of US sites because i got sick to death of having everything i did, dissected and pulled apart by Britmodeller.com
and the likes. In short, if you can do better then i am more than happy to take all the advice you can give and be grateful. If you are here to hijack my thread by belittling my efforts just to show off your knowledge i dont have any time for you. The purpose of most rivet counters intervention is not "Constructive" criticism, its a destructive ego trip on their part

Ok you can come out now shall i get my coat ?

[tcoat]

Aug 20, 2024 13:19:28 GMT -5 paddy said:

Aug 18, 2024 13:34:18 GMT -5 tcoat said:

I had a judge at a show say he couldn't properly assess the lines on my Mustang because it was broken up! It is a Tamiya kit so how would the "lines" be off any more than the other 6 that were on the table?
 

Love this, originality and creativity rolled into one. One look and you know someone had a brilliant time making this and thats what its all about..

This was originally a Britmodeller forum unofficial group build project destined to go to the 453rd Museum in Old Buckenham U.K.. They were very very eager to get it as I was donating the kit materials and time. As soon as I enquired how they wanted it shipped I never heard from them again. After about 5 unanswered emails I just gave up.

[armornutii]

   I hope you plan on staying paddy, I for one enjoy your kmowledge and input. Your Bugatti was nice too . BTW WELL SAID CHAP! Now hang your cloak on the hook, pull up a forum of your choice and start enjoying our hobby.

[Steve Zuleski]

Well said, Paddy, well said. Grab a cold one on the counter, let's have us a brew!

[paddy]

Tcoat

I had exactly the same at Britmodeller with the "sky" colour on the underside of my spitfire ..I mean i had no idea that it was a felony and a lifetime of ridicule and abuse was the sentence if you didnt follow their rules. I argued my case for duck egg blue but i was deemed the thread idiot and some self appointed "expert" sitting in his lonely flat, living his lonely life, desperate to make an impression on the impressionable, cast me as some sort of sub species and told to go and play with the children. Did you know so many suffered the same indignity they set up another website called Brexitmodeller :-)

anyway, back to the real world and a sensible website so thanks to all here for your hospitality :-)

[paddy]

On a different topic mooted above with judging.
I think its important to know how the model started ? for example a Revell BF-109 with a displayed engine or a Tamiya BF-109 with Eduard displayed engine is a whole different ball game in terms or work. With modern 3d printing now in use by Eduard and their PE and carrier filmless decals you can almost buy yourself to 1st place

[TJ]

Aug 21, 2024 3:01:21 GMT -5 paddy said:

On a different topic mooted above with judging.
I think its important to know how the model started ? for example a Revell BF-109 with a displayed engine or a Tamiya BF-109 with Eduard displayed engine is a whole different ball game in terms or work. With modern 3d printing now in use by Eduard and their PE and carrier filmless decals you can almost buy yourself to 1st place

Paddy I agree with you to a point.  One can have the best kit in the world, as far as fit and details.  But if they can't apply that to the build with modeling know how. It will not win anything.

Oh and I agree with your statement about that other site