A thought on " rivet counters"

[armornutii]

   As most of you guys know I have a personal grump with rivet counters. I like to build my models my way and OOB is good enough for me most of the time.
      That disclaimer said, I kinda think if it wasn't for rivet counters demanding more and correct details be provided in kits we may not be experiecing the " Golden Age of Modelling". Yes there will still be amazing scratchbuilders, kit bashers, and all around Da Vincis, however somebody somewhere bent the ear of a producer who took a chance and made a small splash in the modelling world. We all have in some way benefited from such an exchange of knowledge and information.
      So with that I tip my hat, offer an olive branch, and open this discussion to acknowledging tihes who SOMETIMES bug the fecal matter out of me yet without we still might be carving sillouttes from wood, wax, or soap.

[Tojo72]

I never had a problem with rivet counting,I don't even mind hearing their advice,everyone can build their own way,and I dont have to do anything I don't want to do,or I can benefit from it if I want.

It's all in the way advice is given,is it helpful or condescending.

[406 Silverado]

Aug 17, 2024 8:25:02 GMT -5 Tojo72 said:

I never had a problem with rivet counting,I don't even mind hearing their advice,everyone can build their own way,and I dont have to do anything I don't want to do,or I can benefit from it if I want.

It's all in the way advice is given,is it helpful or condescending.

 Precisely. I've always had the exact same belief. Constructive critique is ALWAYS welcome........Destructive behavior......is NOT. 

[tcoat]

Aug 17, 2024 8:40:50 GMT -5 406 Silverado said:

Aug 17, 2024 8:25:02 GMT -5 Tojo72 said:

I never had a problem with rivet counting,I don't even mind hearing their advice,everyone can build their own way,and I dont have to do anything I don't want to do,or I can benefit from it if I want.

It's all in the way advice is given,is it helpful or condescending.

 Precisely. I've always had the exact same belief. Constructive critique is ALWAYS welcome........Destructive behavior......is NOT. 

The issue that arises is that often the rivet counters think they ARE giving constructive criticism!  Since they know that the main hatch brackets on Panzer IV tactical number 401 serial 23846b was built by Hans Schultz on June 2 1941 were at a 7.2 degree angle not the 7.8 degrees that the kit supplies then everybody should make that change or they are wrong and they are more than happy to tell you so. As I have said many times my style of modeling is targeted at giving an illusion of being viewed at an equivalent scale distance. This means I am not worried about those small details since you wouldn’t see them in real life anyway.  I love seeing a highly detailed build but it is just a different focus and goal than I am after so neither method is right or wrong.  Unfortunately many of the genre specific forums home in on that extreme level of detail and if you don’t conform you are just a “kit builder” not a “model maker”. 

[armornutii]

    I wholeheartedly agree that constuctive critizism is beneficial, and I should also say I'm not busting chops or trying to start a battle. I have learned to thicken my skin, take advise, catalog it for future use, and move on. Perhaps I should have simply said thanks instead. AGAIN please take my OP as a way of sayng how much I really do appreciate those who have the time and passion to improve the hobby really for everyone. 

[jeaton01]

If only I could keep them from activating the voices in my head.....

[brandonk]

Rivit counters and their OCD view of model kits can drive me nuts. BUT, I will watch and listen to their reviews and I will always learn something about the subject that will let me make a better built kit later when I do that one kit. I don't look to make them perfect, but some details do need attention from time to time and the vast knowledge they provide is quite helpful in some cases, to me anyway. But they can be kinda buzzkill also. When I build a kit, if someone looks at the kit and instantly knows the subject then I have built what I set out to build. The rest of the work is done for me and me alone and no one else will see it or appreciate it like I do. If it looks like a duck when you first look at it, then as far as I'm concerned, its a duck.

[Tobi]

Aug 17, 2024 9:51:19 GMT -5 brandonk said:

Rivit counters and their OCD view of model kits can drive me nuts. BUT, I will watch and listen to their reviews and I will always learn something about the subject that will let me make a better built kit later when I do that one kit. I don't look to make them perfect, but some details do need attention from time to time and the vast knowledge they provide is quite helpful in some cases, to me anyway. But they can be kinda buzzkill also. When I build a kit, if someone looks at the kit and instantly knows the subject then I have built what I set out to build. The rest of the work is done for me and me alone and no one else will see it or appreciate it like I do. If it looks like a duck when you first look at it, then as far as I'm concerned, its a duck.

I agree on the reviews, but it doesn't free you from doing your own homework, if you enjoy that part like I do. Many rivet counters only think they know everything, when they don't. I consider myself a rivet counter BTW, and what I've learned is that there is always more out there, which I will never even know that it is still unknown to me. So I try my best and there will be always someone to which I'm just a Hippie-kit builder. Who cares?

1. A model should look good, then it is right. It can be the perfectly, most exactly built model with all the details, if the paint job is poor or the finish not properly, it's not a good model (to me).

2. There are a lot of RC's out there, from whom I've never seen a finished model. And these call themselves modelers. LOL! Show your work first!

[Steve Zuleski]

Yall think rivet counters can be brutal, how bout Tartan aficionados? They are the ultimate button counters that know every stinkin tartan pattern, which clan, which era, and Lord only knows what else,...................but they are helpful to me, so I let em rattle on and take it or leave it.

I won't tolerate a bully when it comes to advice, and I will address them politely of course, but many times they are very helpful. Like yall said, constructive criticism is always a good thing, and if they weren't here, we'd be widdling wood blocks, HA!

[2whl]

I have learned to ignore the rivet counters.   I build for me and my own enjoyment.  But I do like to make fun of them.....

[tcoat]

So the consensus appears to be…

Rivet counters for self or like minded builders - good
Rivet counters that try to force their views on others - bad

[tcoat]

Aug 17, 2024 13:10:25 GMT -5 2whl said:

I have learned to ignore the rivet counters.   I build for me and my own enjoyment.  But I do like to make fun of them.....

Oh the colour critics drive me nuts more than rivet counters ever would! Especially the WW2 stuff where paints were mixed by hand at factories or in the field so the “standard” was more of a recommendation than a rule and close enough was the business of the day.  I left a forum that our UK friends probably know of after being completely ridiculed because my Ardo floatplane was a tone too beige and not green enough according to a written description of the true colour.  

[eaglecash867]

Aug 17, 2024 11:02:44 GMT -5 Tobi said:

I agree on the reviews, but it doesn't free you from doing your own homework, if you enjoy that part like I do. Many rivet counters only think they know everything, when they don't. I consider myself a rivet counter BTW, and what I've learned is that there is always more out there, which I will never even know that it is still unknown to me. So I try my best and there will be always someone to which I'm just a Hippie-kit builder. Who cares?

1. A model should look good, then it is right. It can be the perfectly, most exactly built model with all the details, if the paint job is poor or the finish not properly, it's not a good model (to me).

2. There are a lot of RC's out there, from whom I've never seen a finished model. And these call themselves modelers. LOL! Show your work first!

#1 has been one of the baffling things about many of the rivet counters out there for me.  An inordinate amount of time and effort goes into modifying this..."correcting" that...usually things that most people, even the rivet counter himself probably wouldn't notice.  But then it comes time to paint, and nearly all of those ambitious "materpieces" end up going to a fuzz-covered paint booth and come out looking like they were painted in a sand storm.  That poor paintjob is going to be the first thing that gets noticed, long before anybody sees whether or not the wings have the proper dihedral or droop.

#2 is something I have noticed a lot as well.  There also seem to be a large number of rivet counters out there who are always there to offer critique of the work of others, but never seem to show their own work.  Heh...just a pet peeve of mine.  If someone doesn't show their own work, in my opinion, they haven't earned the right to criticize the work of others.  Don't just tell someone you have a better technique...show them the results.

That all being said, I do tend to drill down into minute details on my builds, but it's mostly for the technical challenge of doing it.  Also, as I found out on the Tamiya F-4B that I built, having OCD about getting correct angles for the bomb racks on the outer pylons turned out to be necessary, otherwise they wouldn't have cleared the main gear doors...and I would have been sad when I tried to hang the Mk 77s on them.  LOL.

Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with BK...if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck

[vw8243]

My thought 
  On rivet counters is give them there own site and let them talk Bol$*£2 to each other ,most a them don t build they look at drawings and files from archives and tell ya thats what was written in stone so it must be right .
   Dont get me wrong I have great respect for lads that go the extra mile wit PE and resin bits and parts , but when ya get some d*%$ telling ya the under side of a mud guard is not done right because the brace is in the wrong position @$%£&*"!$%^&&%^%%%   

[keavdog]

My response to rivet counters is - ya, the real one is way bigger and not made out of plastic 😋

[dean48ws]

Never in my modelling experience have I seen an RC give constructive advice - Never! These clowns are the ones who kill the hobby. I've been to enough model shows, both plastic and trains to see the result. These guys stand in front of the build in question and often quite loudly, "privately' discuss the merits of the build in question and it usually doesn't matter if it's juniors' opens, ladies or anything else. They usually have no idea who the builder is let alone if it's the guy right there trying to get a picture of it on the table. Surprisingly enough, quite often that modeler, if they are new to shows or younger, don't come back the next year. So, the hobby loses a builder and the sales and everything that goes with it.
Take the time next time you are at a show to watch and listen. The guys who deserve the biggest piece of silverware on the day are the ones who quietly go up to that kid looking at the junior entries and ask which one is his, or that guy over in the corner who looks kinda lost and includes him in the conversation. If you've ever been involved in judging, only NNL for me where all I have to do is count votes, more often than not, the RC's will only fill in the voting slip in the areas of their 'expertise'! I asked one guy once why he'd done that and his response was other than the category in question, nothing else there deserved his time! I add his club has since folded because the president was trying to stamp this attitude out, they voted him out, but no one stood in his place - madness!
For me, modelling has always been about doing what makes you happy. If it was a paid job, then it would be different but it's a hobby. At shows, if I see a car in the junior section that looks like it was painted with the cat's tail, that's the one I vote for because I know the kid has done it. Yeah, sure I'd love to get my builds better, more accurate and better detailed but it becomes a comprise between achieving a certain level or moving onto a new project where I can try some of the ideas I've seen or that guys like yourselves have passed on.
It comes back to the other thread on here about how amazing this site is in its support of its own members, the advice and friendliness of all here. I'm becoming less inclined to go to shows because the mood here isn't carried to the shows. It seems to be getting too serious and if you're not in with the in crowd then you are not in,
Anyway, that's enough from me. In short, I don't get enough time to model to have someone else spoil it for me.

[Tobi]

Aug 17, 2024 13:42:11 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Aug 17, 2024 13:10:25 GMT -5 2whl said:

I have learned to ignore the rivet counters.   I build for me and my own enjoyment.  But I do like to make fun of them.....

Oh the colour critics drive me nuts more than rivet counters ever would! Especially the WW2 stuff where paints were mixed by hand at factories or in the field so the “standard” was more of a recommendation than a rule and close enough was the business of the day.  I left a forum that our UK friends probably know of after being completely ridiculed because my Ardo floatplane was a tone too beige and not green enough according to a written description of the true colour.  

OMG, yes, and most of these experts don't even have an industrial background. If someone from Walmart (no offense) is lecturing about RAL system, norms, tolerances and possibilities to reproduce color tones (in a war production) I say: "carefulness is advisable."
I remember this one guy who seriously stated the Wehrmacht used spectral analysis to ensure the quality of the paint during production runs. Yeah, the military lab (Militärversuchsamt / Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt) had one device that could do spectral analysis, for sure they did use it for this very task. 

Today the color sample is examined one time to get certified as a supplier to the Army, then you're done. Today's RAL color samples printed on card loose their validation after three years, and they are not even utilized for quality control. You found a RAL 840R chart system from 1944 in a basement? Great historical value for interested people, technical value mighty questionable...

Here, the cab and the cab suspension are painted the "same" color from the jar. So much for it works without adjustment:



A few weeks ago I repainted some aluminum rails that received scratches, in the RAL color the manufacturer told me they were. Surprise, no, they don't match exactly, but I expected this before simply by professional experience.

[tcoat]

Aug 18, 2024 4:18:41 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Aug 17, 2024 13:42:11 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Oh the colour critics drive me nuts more than rivet counters ever would! Especially the WW2 stuff where paints were mixed by hand at factories or in the field so the “standard” was more of a recommendation than a rule and close enough was the business of the day.  I left a forum that our UK friends probably know of after being completely ridiculed because my Ardo floatplane was a tone too beige and not green enough according to a written description of the true colour.  

OMG, yes, and most of these experts don't even have an industrial background. If someone from Walmart (no offense) is lecturing about RAL system, norms, tolerances and possibilities to reproduce color tones (in a war production) I say: "carefulness is advisable."
I remember this one guy who seriously stated the Wehrmacht used spectral analysis to ensure the quality of the paint during production runs. Yeah, the military lab (Militärversuchsamt / Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt) had one device that could do spectral analysis, for sure they did use it for this very task. 

Today the color sample is examined one time to get certified as a supplier to the Army, then you're done. Today's RAL color samples printed on card loose their validation after three years, and they are not even utilized for quality control. You found a RAL 840R chart system from 1944 in a basement? Great historical value for interested people, technical value mighty questionable...

Here, the cab and the cab suspension are painted the "same" color from the jar. So much for it works without adjustment:


A few weeks ago I repainted some aluminum rails that received scratches, in the RAL color the manufacturer told me they were. Surprise, no, they don't match exactly, but I expected this before simply by professional experience.

Oh I am sure that the Polish forced labourer with the 2 month life expectancy from handling the lead and other toxic ingredients of paint at the time with no ppe or safety considerations while mixing that paint was well trained on the use of specialized spectral analysis equipment.  

[armornutii]

   Wow, really great replies to this, you guys are great and  seem to have a similar mind set as I.  That said I was hoping y'all would catch on to the theory I was trying to set forth that because of past modelers...R/Cs...manufactures have stepped up their game by giving us so much mor accurate kits we can build straight from the box and have a walking talking duck. As we all know manufacturing if a marketable model is a HUGE cost and risk. While it would be wonderful to believe they all share a passion to produce the most accurate subject they can, it kinda doesn't make sense.
     I do believe they, the mfgr, does the best to produce an accurate and profitable subject, and I believe that is thanks to both R/Cs and guys like me.
      I also believe it is up to the builder to do the research. We have a MASSIVE selection of hues, shades, and pure colors to choose from. The modeler has a choice as to what "looks best" to them on their model. Example: I see cyan, you see blue...I call it cyan but it is still blue both are " correct" but to be honest I couldn't tell you if it IS cyan or a very bright blue.
      So while " rivet counters" are somewhat a PITA we should acknowledge that perhaps without them our current state of modeling might not be as great as it is.

[eaglecash867]

They probably do help with getting manufacturers to step up their game, but there are also the revenue and reputation factors. Brands like Tamiya have gotten better and better over the years, and now they're the ones to beat...everybody wants to have their reputation which is also good for us modelers. All of their products keep improving with every production run. Speaking of out-of-box builds and rivet counters, ironically it usually seems to be the rivet counters who say things along the lines of Tamiya not being for "real modelers" because they're "too easy" and "shake and bake". Heh...there just doesn't seem to be any pleasing them.

Regarding reputations of model manufacturers, just have to take another opportunity to plug Academy for their A-10C. I have built lots of Academy models over the years and they were good, but not nearly as good as Tamiya offerings from the same time period. That A-10C shows that they're continuing to improve, as it is ALMOST Tamiya level quality. Oh...and there are enough precise, nicely-done rivets on that thing to keep the rivet counters busy for days.

[tcoat]

Not sure the rivet counters have as much impact on the improvement of kits as one may think. They are a small segment of a still rather large hobby and although vocal just wouldn’t have the financial impact to make the companies strive to make better and more detailed kits.
There are bigger considerations at play. Back in the early years there were maybe a half dozen companies making kits in a booming hobby. They could put out just anything and kids would buy them. As those kids got older their expectations increased and the manufacturers had to bring up quality to match. That increase in quality of course pushed a greater price tag which led to more competitive business which again forced better kits to be made. Now we have a hundred or so companies making kits and the prices really reflect the changes in what is in the box.
The other thing is plain and simple advancements in tech. The 1959 Aurora mold maker with a line drawing and a chisel could not make the same parts as an AutoCAD driven plasma cutter using slide moulding tech can. Even the much admired Tamiya moulding of the past pales in comparison of stuff being put out by companies like Meng and RFM these days.
It is fun to watch some rivet counters still slam these modern kit details because the 3d scan of the real thing used to make the kit parts don’t agree with the fuzzy black and white pictures from some book.

[brandonk]

I think the largest thing pushing the industry forward with advances is the tech. We have laser scanners, computer references, CAD, etc, etc. None of this was available years ago and we got what we got with a great deal of work and talent that is now easier to do and with more precision due mostly to improvements in tech. The consumer and RC's have had some input, but what we have now is driven by the abilities to do this all virtually where adjustments and versions are a simple key stroke away. Now with 3D printing it will go even further. There are already kits being sold with large amounts of 3D parts making up most of the kit. What will come in the next 10 years is going to be stunning. Most of our stashes are already obsolete, but to us modelers we see that as a challenge to build the kit better knowing we can buy a better kit already, but we have the old kit now.

[TJ]

The one thing that drives me batty is when a supposed expert tries to ding a build for something that is correct on the build. I was at a show a few years ago and overheard a guy dinging a P-51A Mustang because the builder did not droop the landing gear doors, because all Mustangs doors droop after shut down. I, very nicely, put him in his place, by letting him know that Allison engine Mustangs had a different lock system on the doors so no they don't droop like the Merlin engined. He bit his lip and moved on.

If you don't know don't judge or ask

[armornutii]

  The drooped doors is also a product of a simple hydrualic system that when the engine shuts down, the pump stops providing pressure and eventually the doors drop open. I cannot comment on any sort of lock because I don't know any indepth workings of the retreact system of the P-51.

[tcoat]

Aug 18, 2024 13:22:45 GMT -5 TJ said:

The one thing that drives me batty is when a supposed expert tries to ding a build for something that is correct on the build. I was at a show a few years ago and overheard a guy dinging a P-51A Mustang because the builder did not droop the landing gear doors, because all Mustangs doors droop after shut down. I, very nicely, put him in his place, by letting him know that Allison engine Mustangs had a different lock system on the doors so no they don't droop like the Merlin engined. He bit his lip and moved on.

If you don't know don't judge or ask

I had a judge at a show say he couldn't properly assess the lines on my Mustang because it was broken up! It is a Tamiya kit so how would the "lines" be off any more than the other 6 that were on the table?





The base even had the pictures for crying out loud.


 

[keavdog]

I did a vignette with a Tamiya German quad 20mm in gray with a worn field applied white wash. The judges note said "paint the entire model" 😶😯🤷‍♂️😂

[armornutii]

Aug 18, 2024 17:08:43 GMT -5 keavdog said:

I did a vignette with a Tamiya German quad 20mm in gray with a worn field applied white wash. The judges note said "paint the entire model" 😶😯🤷‍♂️😂

   Wow, now that's just a down right travesty of people NOT knowing subject matter. R/C's in training 

[dean48ws]

For what my 2 cents worth is worth, is the improvement in model quality from the manufacturers also driven by the fact that as an aging population, we now have the finances to afford better made and as such, more expensive kits??

[tcoat]

Aug 19, 2024 1:31:30 GMT -5 dean48ws said:

For what my 2 cents worth is worth, is the improvement in model quality from the manufacturers also driven by the fact that as an aging population, we now have the finances to afford better made and as such, more expensive kits??

That swing probably peaked around 10 years ago. Now that aging population (say the 60 to 80 year range) are headed into retirement (and the fixed income that sometimes means), losing the ability to even build models or are no longer with us at all so the market will no longer be driven by us. In the next 10 or 15 years there will be almost nobody left in the hobby that remembers going and buying a kit at the corner store for $2.
The hobby however is far from dead and things such as 3D printing, easy availability of kits and aftermarket parts due the internet and forums such as this show that it is in fact still growing. The next generation of modelers (say the current 40 to 60 year old's) may still have a bit of sticker shock at the rising prices but you can bet that the group following them won't even bat an eye at $100+ since it will be all that they ever knew and the norm not the exception. Not long ago in my local shop I saw a teenager pick up a new(ish) release of the old Monogram Mitchel kit and say "How about this one dad it is only $40". I remember that kit at being $5 and as recently as 10 years ago Michaels had it for $15 but to him $40 was dirt cheap. 

[brandonk]

Aug 19, 2024 5:51:27 GMT -5 tcoat said:

Aug 19, 2024 1:31:30 GMT -5 dean48ws said:

For what my 2 cents worth is worth, is the improvement in model quality from the manufacturers also driven by the fact that as an aging population, we now have the finances to afford better made and as such, more expensive kits??

That swing probably peaked around 10 years ago. Now that aging population (say the 60 to 80 year range) are headed into retirement (and the fixed income that sometimes means), losing the ability to even build models or are no longer with us at all so the market will no longer be driven by us. In the next 10 or 15 years there will be almost nobody left in the hobby that remembers going and buying a kit at the corner store for $2.
The hobby however is far from dead and things such as 3D printing, easy availability of kits and aftermarket parts due the internet and forums such as this show that it is in fact still growing. The next generation of modelers (say the current 40 to 60 year old's) may still have a bit of sticker shock at the rising prices but you can bet that the group following them won't even bat an eye at $100+ since it will be all that they ever knew and the norm not the exception. Not long ago in my local shop I saw a teenager pick up a new(ish) release of the old Monogram Mitchel kit and say "How about this one dad it is only $40". I remember that kit at being $5 and as recently as 10 years ago Michaels had it for $15 but to him $40 was dirt cheap. 

Good point. One of the biggest reasons I have the stash that I do is I know that one day I won't be able to afford the kits and having them on hand as I get older will make building them easier as I will already own plenty.