Trumpeter 38(t) - BUILD COMPLETE!!! (09.02.14)

[Tobi]

Ben, Friul offers the standard 38(t) track and three kinds of Hetzer tracks. The Marder tracks you saw are for a PzII running gear!

The Hetzer track was introduced in 1944 and was for Hetzer exclusively.
Every other 38(t) based vehicle ran on the standard track!

Cheers,
Tobi

[Hinksy]

Jan 13, 2014 15:32:46 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Ben, Friul offers the standard 38(t) track and three kinds of Hetzer tracks. The Marder tracks you saw are for a PzII running gear!

The Hetzer track was introduced in 1944 and was for Hetzer exclusively.
Every other 38(t) based vehicle ran on the standard track!

Cheers,
Tobi

Cheers guys,

Tobi - Sorry mate but you have totally lost me here when you refer to the Pz.II running gear! Which are the Marder tracks you are referring to?

The Friuls I have (for the Hetzer) fit my 38t just fine hence my reason for being a bit confused?

I just assumed the 38t chassis was pretty much the same - I know there's a variation in the physical appearance of them i.e. number/size of lightning holes etc.

I'm probably being very thick here but if you could try and explain this as if you were talking to someone who knew nothing about tanks (ahem) that would be great!

Cheers dude,

Ben

[Tobi]

No problem Ben, maybe we are referring to different things.
When I search my favourite webshop for Friuls with the term Marder, then I get:

ATL-52 & ATL-53 which are both tracks for Marder II's, based on Panzer II chassis, not the 38(t)

Then there are the Hetzer tracks:

ATL-15, ATL-35 and the somewhat special Winterkette ATL-93

For the 38(t) Friul offers only one track as far as know:

ATL-13

---

Now the differences between the Hetzer and the 38(t) track. After the experiences in Russia with extensive snow and, even worser, mud, the design of many German tank tracks was revised. The track links for the new Jagpanzer Hetzer became wider and the grouser was reinforced. Of note is that the old and new links were not interchangeable.

Of course you are right when you say, it should be possible without any problems to use a Hetzer track on a 38(t) running gear, the components were the same!

What I wanted to point out is: this was not practice. It was more the other way around. The majority of Hetzers received the new track, but not all.
And in 1944, when the Hetzer track came into service, no 38(t)'s were produced any longer. I doubt that any of the new tracks came as supply to the front, when there weren't enough late design tracks to outfit every new Hetzer in the factory with them.

If you'd like to know more about this fascinating topic, I recommend the book "Panzerketten" by Dr. Peter Schwarzmann. It covers every German WWII track, even the special ones. Maybe there is an English translation available.

Cheers,
Tobi

[Hinksy]

Jan 14, 2014 13:05:36 GMT -5 Tobi said:

No problem Ben, maybe we are referring to different things.
When I search my favourite webshop for Friuls with the term Marder, then I get:

ATL-52 & ATL-53 which are both tracks for Marder II's, based on Panzer II chassis, not the 38(t)

Then there are the Hetzer tracks:

ATL-15, ATL-35 and the somewhat special Winterkette ATL-93

For the 38(t) Friul offers only one track as far as know:

ATL-13

---

Now the differences between the Hetzer and the 38(t) track. After the experiences in Russia with extensive snow and, even worser, mud, the design of many German tank tracks was revised. The track links for the new Jagpanzer Hetzer became wider and the grouser was reinforced. Of note is that the old and new links were not interchangeable.

Of course you are right when you say, it should be possible without any problems to use a Hetzer track on a 38(t) running gear, the components were the same!

What I wanted to point out is: this was not practice. It was more the other way around. The majority of Hetzers received the new track, but not all.
And in 1944, when the Hetzer track came into service, no 38(t)'s were produced any longer. I doubt that any of the new tracks came as supply to the front, when there weren't enough late design tracks to outfit every new Hetzer in the factory with them.


If you'd like to know more about this fascinating topic, I recommend the book "Panzerketten" by Dr. Peter Schwarzmann. It covers every German WWII track, even the special ones. Maybe there is an English translation available.

Cheers,
Tobi

Thanks for taking your time to explain that Tobi

I've got a built Marder II which clears up the confusion with that as they are obviously very different.

So, ideally I'll be wanting some 38t Friuls but for this excercise (cheap kit-quick build) I may as well stick with these Hetzer Friuls now.

It is an interesting toic - I agree. It's a fun part of the hobby getting the track patterns right.

I've been thinking about paint schemes and think a very distressed whitewash over grey would be good. Has anyone got any photos of a whitewashed 38t kicking about - or links to them? I can't recall ever seeing a w/washed 38t!?

Cheers again Tobi,

Ben

[Tobi]

Jan 14, 2014 13:19:58 GMT -5 Hinksy said:

I've been thinking about paint schemes and think a very distressed whitewash over grey would be good. Has anyone got any photos of a whitewashed 38t kicking about - or links to them? I can't recall ever seeing a w/washed 38t!?

Cheers again Tobi,

Ben

In the color profiles book from PanzerAces there is a whitewash over grey Ausf. F on page 39, belonging to 20th tank div., March '42. You will have to look in this time frame, as in the winter of '41 the Wehrmacht was that badly prepared for winter warfare, I think they didn't even have regular whitewash.
But the tracks will be definetely wrong for this and on the other hand late vehicles from 1944 would have had yellow base color.

This is a rocky road for a quick and dirty excersise. Better make them tracks verrry muddy mate!

Cheers,
Tobi

[Hinksy]

Jan 14, 2014 16:40:04 GMT -5 Tobi said:

Jan 14, 2014 13:19:58 GMT -5 Hinksy said:

I've been thinking about paint schemes and think a very distressed whitewash over grey would be good. Has anyone got any photos of a whitewashed 38t kicking about - or links to them? I can't recall ever seeing a w/washed 38t!?

Cheers again Tobi,

Ben

In the color profiles book from PanzerAces there is a whitewash over grey Ausf. F on page 39, belonging to 20th tank div., March '42. You will have to look in this time frame, as in the winter of '41 the Wehrmacht was that badly prepared for winter warfare, I think they didn't even have regular whitewash.
But the tracks will be definetely wrong for this and on the other hand late vehicles from 1944 would have had yellow base color.

This is a rocky road for a quick and dirty excersise. Better make them tracks verrry muddy mate!

Cheers,
Tobi

Hi Tobi,

Thanks for taking the time to look into the w/wash subject for me dude!

It rings true with what I was thinking that at this early stage of the conflict the whole whitewash thing might not have been so widely used and recognised as say, during 1944/45.

There's difinately not many photos about of w/washed 38(t)'s - I can't tell what colour this one is?



I've just found out that I'm going to get a bonus at the end of January for work done whilst I was still at work before being signed off SO - I've just ordered some correct 38(t) Friuls and replacement Brass RB MG barrels for this current build.





I'm going to build another Tamiya Hetzer so I've gotthe Hetzer Friuls ready to go - as I said before I want to focus on a few 38t based builds so this will be good - I loved building my last Hetzer and fancy a crack at that excellent 'Ambush' scheme

I'm going to get the turret sorted this afternoon - job nearly done!

Ben

[Hinksy]

Hi fellas,

Woohoo! I've just completed assembly of my first ever Trumpeter kit and I must say - it's been a real pleasure to build!

Obviously I've ordered the different Friuls so they'll be a Saturday job and I'm still thinking about a Cammander figure so haven't fitted the turret hatch yet.

Apart from the hatch and tracks there's just the Jack which is supposed to sit across the top of the Grouser Box so I'll paint that separately and fit that later.

Here's a couple of finished shots with a Tamiya 1/35 figure for scale:





My choice of schemes:





Nearly there - I'm looking forward to getting some paint on this one and I feel a base coming on too!

Cheers guys,

Ben

[bbd468]

Hey my British Bull Dog Brotha! Splendid build Ben, and i can safely and surely add this kit to my wish list.

Man, I like both schemes, but i love the Grey. I know ya just did a Grey tank, but maybe ya could do a different tone of Grey. Either one will be awesome though Ben. Lookin forward to it mate.

[deafpanzer]

I am with Gary... you recently did panzer grey so maybe you are itching for dark yellow with camo this time? Its your call... you have my support whatever scheme you have chosen. That AM MG barrel is going to deliver HUGE improvement over the kit supplied MG. I have few in stash...

Your 38(t) baby looking pretty good... can't wait to see what you will do next.

[wbill76]

Go for the three-tone scheme Ben, you know you want to!

[Deleted]

doitdoitdoitdoit.......

Ben I believe the 38t in your pic is whitewashover Pz Gray. The crew is wearing the early continental cold weather uniform. The civilians lining the parade route are all bundled up. Also check out the really dark spots on the road wheels.

G

[Deleted]

looks great, it must be one of the easiest kits I've ever built yet it has some great detail

[bullardino]

I'm a big fan of panzer grey, so the choice is easy. I'd go for the three tones one

Very nice job, Ben, I imagined it much bigger, the figure shows how tiny it is.

[Hinksy]

Hey fellas,

Thanks for all the feedback - I'm glad you like her!

I told you these things were small hence the figure - the closest thing I have to it size wise in my cabinet (apart from the Hetzer) would be my Pz.II B.

I've found a perfect figure with the right headgear - it's a Tamiya figure so it's nothing special but it would certainly add to the build IF I can paint it well enough (the figure)

I ordered the correct Friuls yesterday and ONE MG barrel - it was only when it came to finishing the turret last night did I say to myself - "oh gosh darnitt, it has TWO machine guns and I only ordered one barrel" (or words to that effect). I phoned My 'Friul Guy' today and although he'd processed the order he hadn't yet posted it so he's slipped another MG barrel in the envelope and just said next time I place an order with him to order the second one then to ensure it's paid for I agree Andy, them barrels look great and at his prices you can't go wrong.

Anyway, I've definately decided - I AM going for the DY / Tri-Tone scheme. I loved Pete's (Smudges) build and love working with DY when weathering. I'd quite happily build this kit again just to show it in the early war grey scheme. They'd look cool sat together on a base. You gotta love the 38(t)!

I've been through my stowage spares and have found a couple of tarp/bedroll things plus a couple of packs that I'm going to paint and hand from the turret handle.

I'll prime her tomorrow and decide wether to paint her first or get the boring Friul assembly out of the way!

Cheers guys,

Ben

[Deleted]

Good Job , using the MG and the friul track will certainly improve your model.

The photo you posted is an 38t from the Bulgarian army, look at the black cross almost all over the front.
It was painted sand color and probably is panzer grey showing trough on the wheels, there is a set of decals from Bison to make this one



Eddy

[reserve]

Smooth stuff here Ben, it'll be interesting to see one of these in a tri tone


Regards,
Mark

[Hinksy]

Jan 16, 2014 12:30:05 GMT -5 reserve said:

Smooth stuff here Ben, it'll be interesting to see one of these in a tri tone


Regards,
Mark

Cheers guys,

Mark - I'm definately keen to see this in a 3 tone scheme so that's now been decided!

I've got a few little things to sort out today. I was hoping my new Friuls and RB MG Barrels would arrive today but no such luck!

I'm wondering about my two RB MG Barrels that I've ordered. The kit MG Barrels are really nicely detailed and come as a single moulded piece in the 'thingy' that the barrels sit in. I'm assuming I'll have to snip, cut and get the motor tool to clean out the thing where the barrel sits. I don't want to remove the barrels until I receive my RB replacements as I want to see what's involved - I imagine it will be VERY straight forward but these MG's add a LOT to these tanks so I'm not rushing into anything.

I will mask of the kit MG Barrels and prime her today after I've added the antennae and base wiring. I'm still not sure about the figure so I've cleaned up the hatch now but won't fit it yet until I can see if painting a GOOD figure is within my skills!

I've found two detailed Tamiya figures in the spres box - one looks ideal with the correct headgear for the early Pz.Grey box art Commander (side cap) and I've also found a figure that might suit a later tank - he's got TWO optional right arms i.e. one holding a flare gun and the other bent 90 degrees to hold supplied binoculars - the left arm is bent 90 degrees. The only problem is the guy with the cap looks about 4 1:1 scale inches shorter then the side cap guy plus his head is a LOT smaller which won't help me with the painting of him much! I think I'll just use the side cap figure and pinch the arms from the other 'small' guy and mould filler where required.

For Tamiya figures the facial expressions are very well defined compared to some of their earlier offerings!

The one thing I will need some help on is the colours to use on his jacket as I only have a colour picture of his face on the box art which is a black side cap with red piping, silver eagle on cap and what looks like a black jacket with red shoulder patches? Anyone got some super helpful photos or links they could share. Only his head and shoulders will be visible along with a piece of his upper chest area which is what I'm not sure about?

Finally, I've sorted some stowage - not sure what to use yet but It's nicely detailed and mainly resin. I was thinking about putting items on the turret roof lashed down somehow with a couple of packs hanging from the turret and upper hull handles. I've always avoided stowage but am going all out to stretch my skills this year. I'll also be adding some PE tool clamp HANDLES where needed.

Stowage:



This is what I had planned for this main bag with satchels/small bags etc hanging from the two handles:





This is figure 'A' - a perfect match for the early war box art Commander but I'd have to do some arm surgery to make him work i.e. bend them a bit to rest on the hatch:





This is figure 'B' - can he be used without much hassle i.e. his headgear - he'd have to be the figure used with the 3 tone scheme I suppose? He's VERY similar to the figure that came with Tamiya's Jagdpanther (iirc):





So, that's where I'm at. I'll be getting this finished up over the next few days and will be aiming for completion by next Sunday - there's no rush as this is my second build to be completed in 2014 and we are still in January! I'd actually quite happily buy another one of these 38(t)'s and paint it grey and very damaged/busted up!

I need input regarding the MG barrel replacement, how best to show stowage lashed on etc and any other suggestions that may help my build so let's hear them! [/b]

Cheers lads,

Ben

[Deleted]

nice job mate, in my opinion if you have already glued the machine gun barrels in place I think you will have the devils own job replacing them with the brass ones. As you say the barrels will have to be removed and the trough support will need to be retained. Save your sanity mate and just use the kit ones they look fine.

As for the stowage I would keep it confined to the fenders, the bag on the turret roof is ok but how's it tied down? there are no tie downs or fixing points on the turret so I doubt it would actually be placed there in real life. Plus it blocks the rear cupola visor, something I suspect would never be done as this gives the commander vital rear views. I always look at stowage with an eye to how it's attached to the vehicle and also that it does not foul any working parts, turret, tracks etc.

As for the figures simple swapping of arms and heads should get you the pose you want.

[Hinksy]

Jan 18, 2014 8:29:03 GMT -5 @snipersmudge said:

nice job mate, in my opinion if you have already glued the machine gun barrels in place I think you will have the devils own job replacing them with the brass ones. As you say the barrels will have to be removed and the trough support will need to be retained. Save your sanity mate and just use the kit ones they look fine.

As for the stowage I would keep it confined to the fenders, the bag on the turret roof is ok but how's it tied down? there are no tie downs or fixing points on the turret so I doubt it would actually be placed there in real life. Plus it blocks the rear cupola visor, something I suspect would never be done as this gives the commander vital rear views. I always look at stowage with an eye to how it's attached to the vehicle and also that it does not foul any working parts, turret, tracks etc.

As for the figures simple swapping of arms and heads should get you the pose you want.

Hey Pete - I'm glad you popped in to see this one.

If you re-read what I've put in my original post I've ammended it to say the cap guy is underscale (I just noticed) so he is out plus his head is too small compared to the figure who exactly matches the box art - I'll be using box art guy with the swapped arms.

I'll have a look at your figures again if I get stuck but the box art actually shows all that I need.

Also, TOTALLY agree with your assesment of the MG barrels - a pointless task. In my last edit I mentioned that I've decided that I'm going to build another one but badly damaged and in Pz. Grey so I'll use the two barrels on that - they are cheap as chips either way. These kits are just too much fun to build and as I'm waiting to be called away for 12 weeks with work in March/April I don't want to start a big Dragon kit which are all I have in the stash apart from Bronco's Comet and Tamiya's early Marder III but they are for future projects so I'm not starting them.

That's a darn good point about the big bag on the turret blocking the rear visor! Doh! Cheers for pointing that out Pete. I might leave off the bigger stuff and just add the satchels shown hanging from the handles. I was thinking about ways of tying it down but there is nothing to use. I might have something smaller that will work on the Fender somewhere.

Thanks old chum,

Ben

[Hinksy]

Hi fellas,

Carrying on from my earlier post (see a few posts up with the photos of stowage etc) I've fitted the antennae and added a small piece of wiring to the base.

To be honest I hadn't given the wiring to the base a single thought for some reason but after looking at Pete's 38(t) I thought I better had - cheers Pete

That aside I grabbed a couple of PE tool clamp handles to add to the look and found a really nice piece that wrapped around the overlapping shovel and pick handles with a buckle which after much shouting and cursing I did manage to fit and I'm damn pleased with how it looks

I usually go waaaay to heavy with the Primer and end up with a run or two (I had a messy bit on the turret but it's ok now). The turret will be left alone but I'll give it another light sweep later on the Fenders and wheels to get a nice coverage as there's a few small bit's of tan styrene starting to show through - particularly on the wheel walls.

So, ready to go with the paint now. I'm having a day off tomorrow as I'm taking Dad to pick up his new 4WD (or SUV) which is a fair old trek away.

I'd like to get the Friuls assembled before committing to the basecoat. I've left the hatch off as I won't know if I can paint a good enough figure until I try but I'm optimistic - I've been watching a LOT of toots on youtube on figure and face painting.

Here's where we are now - make sure you scroll back up the page to see my earlier post!



Below - I've left one end of the spare track retaining bar unglued so I can slot the spares in after basecoat painting:



Here's the two PE clamp handles and the buckle on the shovel and pick handle - I'm chuffed with that!



I've noticed I missed sanding the joint at the back end of the muffler but there's a layer of Mr. Surfacer to go on there yet so no probs:



This Primer kicks butt - rock hard and not too smooth, just right:



I'm really enjoying this build lads - a highly recommended kit by all accounts!

Ben

[Leon]

Making great progress Ben,Primer is looking good.

[Hinksy]

Cheers Leon - she's coming on nicely matey!

Ben

[Deleted]

Alright, that is looking good, the MG pointing up is a nice touch.
About the support of the MG you asked in another posting I think it is part of the mount and was painted in the tank color

Eddy

[wbill76]

Looks like you're all set for paint Ben!

[Hinksy]

Jan 18, 2014 12:48:12 GMT -5 @eddy said:

Alright, that is looking good, the MG pointing up is a nice touch.
About the support of the MG you asked in another posting I think it is part of the mount and was painted in the tank color

Eddy

Cheers Ed and Bill,

I'm having a day off today as I'm flying through this way too fast and have some annoyingly boring paperwork to do for work and a car to clean

I'll find time to have a thought about the stowage and figure make a start on them and give the tank a final pass of primer to make up for that very light first coat I gave her yesterday.

Ed - you mention the co-driver's MG pointing up? It's fully moveable, like, really moveable and can't be positioned as the 'ball swivel thing' is quite loose. Behind the barrel inside the hull is the rest of the gun which is a lot chunkier so it sits like that. I quite like it too.

The Turret MG fits the same but I must have got some cement on the support ring as that has stuck fast along with the barrel which I was VERY careful to keep glue away from??

Hopefully the correct Friuls arrive tomorrow so I'll make a start on them, get them blackened and then hit the paint!

If you haven't can any of you please read my first post from yesterday morning which shows the figures and stowage. Any help with uniform colour mucho appreciated!

Cheers guys,

Ben

[Deleted]

yeah primer! looking good

[bullardino]

The 38 looks great in primer

[deafpanzer]

Hell yeah! It looks great primed... love those rivets!

[Hinksy]

Cheers guys!

My 38(t) Friuls arrived today so I'm starting on them shortly - I want to be ready to paint her for the weekend.

I've got two of the RB 7.92mm MG Barrels but have taken Pete's advise on board and I'm not going to try to remove the kit barrels from this build as they look fine.

I've got Tamiya's early Marder III in the stash so one of them can go on that - the other will no doubt come in handy.

It's Friul time - yippee!

Ben

[bbd468]

Primer looks good Ben and im ready for paint!  Bring on dem sweet Fruils my brotha!!!