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Post by panzerjager2 on Feb 22, 2016 19:45:23 GMT -5
So here's the question...... And please note, I am a self identified "old curmudgeon", you know the type, "hey kid get off my lawn". Not by age but outlook.
So my very serious question, which I've been mulling over for awhile now, but just leaped out to me VERY RECENTLY. And AGAIN this is no CONDEMNATION just sincere curiosity. The question is, what is the attraction for Photo-etched parts and aftermarket gizmo's??? Yes I have previously identified as being a modeler from THE OLD OLD SCHOOL.... a pre 1970's modeler. Someone who grew up with Hawk, Renewal, Lindberg, and ESCI. In a world where Monogram was a MAJOR leap forward. And though I have long since given up 1/35th Scale, the scale I won awards in, I still don't get it. So again what's the big whup???
Thanks
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John Everett
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Post by John Everett on Feb 22, 2016 19:57:38 GMT -5
I enjoy all that stuff BECAUSE it can be hard to use. In truth, at the average model show, if a tank straight from the box sits next to the same tank with all the neat stuff, the average viewer will barely notice. I do those add-ons for me, for my own enjoyment. They do improve the look of detail on any kit, be it airplane, car or otherwise. And I like looking at similar work done by others with their own PE and resin because I know how difficult they can be to use. And thus the work is more appreciated.
My short answer is that a model with these extras is more satisfying to behold than one which doesn't have them.
Give it a try. Start small, like some resin stowage from Value Gear for your latest armor build. If it really doesn't increase your "hobby satisfaction" then don't worry about it.
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Post by wbill76 on Feb 22, 2016 20:35:56 GMT -5
My view is similar to John's...but I also add in the question of practicality and benefit to the equation. A lot of stuff that's included as part of PE sets is just there to 'fill up the fret' depending and may not necessarily be better (and sometimes is actually worse) than the kit's parts. If it adds to the detail department, I'll use it. If not, I don't. The quality of molding and attention to detail by the major kit makers these days has come a long way even in just the past decade. Older kits need more help to rise to that same standard of detail, so it all comes down to what the builder wants to accomplish with the project. For some things, like stowage or diorama elements/details, aftermarket is the only way to go!
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Post by panzerjager2 on Feb 22, 2016 21:17:43 GMT -5
Kudos to John and wbill for posting an answer........ I do appreciate the input
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Post by deafpanzer on Feb 22, 2016 21:23:53 GMT -5
I am always up for challenge... they sure make details look nice to my eyes only. People may not notice them but judges probably do take time to see the details. I was amazed how much the judges saw and wrote down on my result cards when they judged my builds at AMPS National.
If you don't like it, then don't do it. I enjoy everything I see posted here... it is supposed to be a fun hobby except when tiny PE piece takes off from my tweezer!
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ironhand6
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Post by ironhand6 on Feb 23, 2016 12:24:00 GMT -5
I have to agree with the above statements. to me it is another set of skills to master, but im not to keen on spending as much or more on a "update "set for a kit. That to me is just insane!
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Post by dierk on Feb 23, 2016 13:30:15 GMT -5
Like some of the others who replied, I like the challenge (eventhough I will moan about it to no end) and do think that some of it does improve the looks - a PE engine grill will always look better than an injection moulded one. But I will only use the stuff I consider useful. PE muguards and fuel tanks are easier to damage - and having spent hours thinning down plastic ones to add damage to in the past I'd rather use PE on balance. I generally use AM tracks because I paint my models in subsections and that's just easier to do with Friuls, Masterclub, etc. and on stuff like AFV Club and Tamiya kits they are essential for me, as I hate rubber band tracks. I also don't like link and length and I can think of better things to do than spend my time removing EPMs from injection moulded indies. I also like using AM sets to correct inaccuracies in kits. Metal barrels, especially with rifling, I consider an improvement. I don't build very many kits, so I want them to look as good as I can achieve.
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Post by kaytermarram on Feb 23, 2016 13:45:04 GMT -5
Haha, exactly the question I would like to ask, too! All the "freaks" who ruin their eyes, get mad over loosing microdetails from etchparts on the carpet (they will NEVER see daylight again!) and glueing everything together with superglue but the etchpart. Need to say more? I remember those old times (there are some interesting pics in elder Modeling mags or Verlinden books where guys, equiped only with a Punch and die and tons of strip, rod and sheet build museum quality models. It is a bit sad that those creative influences get lost today with tons of superdetail sets, etchparts, pre painted seat belts and resin blocks of elelctronic devices to the smallest part of modern airplanes and tanks. Do not get me wrong, I love this stuff, but do not use it because of my modeling interest (monsters and mayhem do not need such stuff, thanks god!). It is great to see what stuff is available now (remember Deafies propeller machine dream B-17. He bought tons of aftermarket parts. Have to check how far he has come with it?) but I have the idea that some of our old talents got wasted with it. I would concentrate A LITTLE BIT more on my hardcore modeling instead of breaking my fingers, harhar!
Frank
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 14:58:19 GMT -5
Guess it just comes down to Modeling enjoyment. If you like the extra detailed look of PE, then by all means use it. But if it doesn't ....... then don't.
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adt70hk
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Post by adt70hk on Feb 24, 2016 7:55:45 GMT -5
PJ
Thanks for taking the time to pose the question!!! It's something I to have been wondering about for the last year or so.
That said I have dabbled with a few bits and pieces since coming back - mostly stowage of the sort John mentioned - mainly because I just don't have the skills, tools or materials to do much of my own work and I've found them very useful. Hopefully with time (and not to mention money) I can do a more of my own stuff in the future.
John, Bill, Andy, Ironhand, Dierk, Frank and Dogfish
Thank you for taking the time to respond to PJ's post, it has definitely given me food for thought.
All the best
Andrew
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Post by kaytermarram on Feb 24, 2016 8:35:59 GMT -5
Andrew, I think, we modelers have allways reason to think of stuff like that. I could add, hell, why are there SO MUCH paintsets available, mostly acrylics, and weathering sets, all more or less the same but where is the benefit I get when using them. I use only Vallejo and LifeColor. Think of this and go crazy, Mate!
But the only thing ruling is: have fun. It does not matter, what you use, but use it with your fantasy and be pleased with what you achieve. That counts!
Frank
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Post by Leon on Feb 24, 2016 8:51:35 GMT -5
Bravo Frank! Well said.
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Post by dupes on Feb 24, 2016 10:52:53 GMT -5
The question is, what is the attraction for Photo-etched parts and aftermarket gizmo's??? I know when PE first started to come out it was one of few sources of increased detail for kits...keep in mind that kits back then were far less advanced than they are now. So your option was to scratch new parts/bits, or pick up the PE goodies which transformed your build into something way different than everyone else's! Now, a lot of times I think it's overkill as plastic technology has advanced greatly making a lot of etch mostly redundant. And man, hasn't it gotten expensive. New Eduard sets are major bucks! As for other "aftermarket gizmos" I think it's mostly to be able to make your build look different than someone elses. Different markings can mean a different paintjob than what's in the box, resin stowage means that you don't have the exact same pile of bags hanging of the side of your armor, etc. etc.
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Post by BJ on Feb 26, 2016 14:32:25 GMT -5
As a builder I like it as it can be a challenge and as some of you know I am an over the top OCD stupidity builder.But like others said, When I use PE whether a kit or homemade it has to add to the model not just so I can say it is PE to get ooos and ahhs As a Manufacturer I try to do stuff that most people won't really do or think of, Not that someone couldn't scratch build what I make as a lot of my stuff is scratch built also.(really, who wants a working final drive)But I do it for my enjoyment first and the kits are just a byproduct of that and that usually allows 25 other people in the world to do the same thing. In reality outside of the photos I post, No one ever sees my builds as I am not a writer so no magazines articles and I think I have entered 2 or 3 contests in my life, mostly because there is nothing close and I am an Introvert.
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Post by mrt51 on Feb 26, 2016 16:04:13 GMT -5
Let me say from the off that I'm from the dark side of modeling. I model for competition. I like to compete. That being said I don't run around chasing the latest aftermarket anything. Oh I try to keep up with what's new, but to me all that stuff is just tools I might use. Rarely do I use the whole set of PE on a given model. Some of it is just not worth the trouble and to be honest I would rather make the part myself. Mind you I don't throw un-used away because I will use it on some other model down the road. I continue to be amazed at the modelers who chase after some paint or the other as the best way to finish your model. I will use whatever brand or type that works and is the color I'm looking for and if I can't find it I will mix it myself. We now have a whole lines of washes and pigments. I just look on and smile because I have been making my own for years now. Modeling for me is an art form. It's about colors, building skills, history, and presentation. So build what you want. Use whatever extra's you want. Model at whatever level you want. It's all good!.......but don't stay in one place. Keep learning......Keep exploring new things. Model on! Terry
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Post by Tobi on Feb 26, 2016 16:39:32 GMT -5
Because I get a kick out of it, soldering for example a stowage box which is a kit in itself and then workable like the original!
But I have also built OOTB, focusing only on the paint job and receiving a gold award for it.
It's about challenging yourself, be it building or painting. I like both sides equally.
What would never work for me is rubber bands on a tank model! This I don't understand, especially if someone is using all the PE stuff at the same time.
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bbrowniii
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Post by bbrowniii on Feb 27, 2016 14:55:56 GMT -5
I use it because it is fun.
When it is not fun, I don't use it...usually. :-)
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Post by armorguy on Feb 28, 2016 4:29:35 GMT -5
I like Pe sets and other am stuff too because most of the time they're a challenge to build and add onto a kit...the satisfaction of building these tiny tool clamps...and omg they actually work ! Another personal challenge however is to build a kit ootb and rework certain parts by sanding them thinner for example. Sometimes minor efforts done to kit parts can do the trick and after a good painting and weathering session an ootb kit can look simply awesome. My Ford FAT gun tractor was entirely ootb and won gold, just like my rusty'n dusty Dodge which won Best of Show without one single am part.
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charleygnarlyp290
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Post by charleygnarlyp290 on Mar 1, 2016 21:52:32 GMT -5
Great question and a bunch of great answers.
I, too, am from the old school. I remember a time when PE didn't exist. When I re-entered the hobby in the mid-'80s I discovered PE and after market. Verlinden was big and readily available in my area. There was some cool stuff and I used some, but not much.
When I got back into the hobby just a few years ago, I built my first kit with PE: A Bronco Staghound. It had a bit of PE to it and I enjoyed working with most of it. I agree with what a previous poster said... sometimes I think the manufacturer just tries to fill the fret. Some PE items aren't really necessary. For example (and I thought this was strange) some of the kit tools were molded with mounting clamps/straps. Others had some ultra-tiny PE straps. When the kit was complete with paint and weathering, I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two.
On the flip side, there were some PE straps to hold the fuel tanks in place. Those looked amazing, and there is no way those could have been recreated in styrene.
For me, there is a time and place for after-market. And just because it is available, doesn't mean I will get it. If it improves accuracy or detail substantially, I will consider it. But, I am satisfied building a kit straight from the box...especially with some of the amazing kits available nowadays.
All that said, I am way more impressed with the likes of Shepard Paine's models and his ability to take one of the old Monogram kits and turn it into a museum piece with nothing more than sheet styrene, brass rod, wood, and scavenged parts from other kits, than a newer kit with all of the aftermarket bells and whistles.
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Post by doogsatx on Mar 1, 2016 23:29:27 GMT -5
Personally, I don't really like working with PE (or resin that isn't direct replacement or drop fit). My true love is in painting and weathering - the rest can be enjoyable, but it's really a means to an end. That said, I also value detail. I won't replace a plastic part with PE or resin or other aftermarket just because. But if it meaningfully contributes to the detail of a kit, I'm in. I'm mostly on the aircraft side, and so for me this comes in the form of resin seats, fabric seatbelts, replacement tires, ordnance, gun barrels, stuff like that. Here's one example - the kit seat in Hobby Boss' 1/48 A-6E Intruder, versus Aires resin:
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totalize
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Post by totalize on Mar 2, 2016 5:53:04 GMT -5
I would agree with Doogs I enjoy the painting/weathering aspect of the hobby the most but I also like scratch building if it's not too complicated and PE can help in this area. I also have no issue using it where it I think it will make the model look better but as Bill says the kits have come a long way over the last few years and manufacturers are getting much better at achieving scale dimensions and better details. In fact sometimes the opposite effect can happen with PE where it's too thin for the particular part it's trying to replace and thus unworthy of being used. I tend to find this anomaly more so when building aircraft versus say armour. I also have no hesitation using resin where it can dramatically improve the look of a kit. I have been building mostly aircraft as of late and cockpit seats, wheels and seat harnesses are target areas for me where I look to replace the kit items with resin or aftermarket items.
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Post by charleygnarlyp290 on Mar 2, 2016 8:50:11 GMT -5
Totalize, you bring up a good point I was going to mention earlier and forgot.
Being flat, PE does sometimes does look worse than kit supplied parts. I have seen loaded ammo belts made of PE. Last I saw, .50 cal was still round, not flat.Ammo molded into an ammo can looks better than PE, in my opinion.
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Post by desertrat on Mar 2, 2016 9:35:35 GMT -5
Andrew, I think, we modelers have allways reason to think of stuff like that. I could add, hell, why are there SO MUCH paintsets available, mostly acrylics, and weathering sets, all more or less the same but where is the benefit I get when using them. I use only Vallejo and LifeColor. Think of this and go crazy, Mate! But the only thing ruling is: have fun. It does not matter, what you use, but use it with your fantasy and be pleased with what you achieve. That counts! Frank 100% agree on this, I can't keep up with all the filters, washes, etc. I tend to build old school, just add black, or white.. it's all about enjoying what you do, every build i do gets better than the last, so i must be doing something right? and even after ......a very long time..... I still enjoy the hobby.
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Post by kaytermarram on Mar 2, 2016 14:03:01 GMT -5
Anyone remembers Francois Verlinden? Way back in the 70ties he developed a very delicate drybrush technique and had many many followers, as you would say today. In every Modeling mag you could read about this brilliant model builder and how realistic his technique was. Francois was one of the first men offering resin figures and superdetail sets, be it add ons or PE parts. He expanded immense and hauled from Belgium to the USA where he worked together with Louis Pruneau and Bob Letterman. And than, a smart Spaniard came up, I talk about Mig and the rest is history. I had some very interesting discussions with Mig himself and he wanted ro collaborate with Verlinden these days, but he was not interested to work with the new "spanish school of painting" which was Migs great challenge, so Verlinden was lost on the way sometime later. I mean, really, who paints figures now with drybrushing? A very simple but highly effective technique so far, but I think, all those "modern" modebuilders come up with their own technics of doing the weathering, but all are based on the newer methods of Mig and Adam Wilder. Correct me, if I am wrong, but sometimes I for myself do not know what to do. Maybe this is the reason why I do mostly figures, or sculpt my own figs!
Frank
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Post by panzerjager2 on Mar 2, 2016 15:43:31 GMT -5
WOW, some really great discussions on this topic. Thanks to one and all for sharing their thoughts. I guess it's time for me to weigh in.................. (Like you cant see where this is heading, yeah right )
So, for me, I HATE PE and most resin Aftermarket. Now the reasons are not quite what one may suspect.........
As to Photo-etched, I tried a very early release, circa 1988 on my PZIII, man did I hate that set. I butchered it up six ways to Sunday. That and the fact all the surface detail is FLAT. Combine that with the scale I currently work, (1/25th) I egotistically think I can create the detail with plastic and brass, (will see).
For resin Aftermarket, this is something that has been with me since I was a chef. I went to a food show, in the EARLY 1990's. And what struck me was all the "aftermarket" ready to go culinary treats. By this I mean Pate, Braised Lamb, pickled delights and so forth. No longer did a person need to be a trained chef, a ding-a-ling without any formal training could prepare the scale meals. Yes the quality would not be the same, that doesn't matter to Mr. and Mrs America. The genie was out of the bottle. All that training was for naught. And that's the theme...
Now let's stay in that same era, (1990's) I was doing a lot of competing, A LOT competing. From local to regional show. One of the last shows I competed at there was an entry, (for the story it really doesn't matter if it was air ground sea or sfi-fi)- Now this entry was basically all verlindin, jaguar, eduard, and others. To the point the base kit was let's say 30.00usd. With all the aftermarket PE and custom decals, or as our Canadian brothers say Deck-als........ The kit topped out well over 175.00usd. Now before you get out your pitchforks and torches...... I can hear you all saying, "who cares how much I spend". And you are CORRECT. The challenge is and was that day, judging DIDN'T know the difference. Nobody could nor would say how can you compare a basically "bought" entry, versus a scratch built entry. What the GREAT masters like Shep and Duane NEVER really had to face in their competition years was just that. How can you compare Shep's B-17, (which I think we all know) or his Mark III against some Jaguar, verlindin, upgrade entry. YOU CAN NOT. They are two different animal. Now to be fair BOTH do take skill, HOWEVER one is in MY HUMBLE OPINION very much different and as such should be judged differently.
I've said my peace, aired my vitriol, and put it out on the web. For me and me alone, I model for the fun, I use what I use and I enjoy the art. When we old farts die off, who knows where the hobby will go. I hope it's onward and upwards....
PJII
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Post by adt70hk on Mar 2, 2016 16:40:15 GMT -5
Can I just echo's PJ comments about everyone's contributions.
It's been interesting to see what everyone thinks and how they do/don't make use of AM parts and in for what reasons.
So thank you very much for helping to shine a brighter light on the subject.
All the best.
Andrew
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Post by beast on Mar 2, 2016 17:24:20 GMT -5
I'll only use upgrade parts if it benefits the look and accuracy of a model and if i am actually capable of using it in the first place. Some PE kits have parts that are impossibly small for me to even cut off the sheet and i usually work in 1/16 scale!!! I have great eyesight but hands rivaling a polar bear lol! I don't particularly like working with PE but sometimes it's well worth it. No problem with resin but once again, i'll only consider it on what it brings to the party.
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Post by kaytermarram on Mar 3, 2016 13:07:27 GMT -5
I remember the first book of THE VERLINDEN WAY where he did a Korean F-16, highly improved with scratch build cockpit parts and fully detailed interior stuff. Hell, I was impressed like never before and when I compare this F-16 with todays aftermarket parts (you can skin me alive), the winner is and was the F-16 done by Verlinden. Because of all the craftmanship and knowing how to do it he put in. It is one part to superdetail a kit with strip, rod and gizmos and another to use cast resin parts and PE. I am more impressed by the first that means. It is just like the comparing Sheps B-17 wit and overcrusted one with PE and Resin parts!
Frank
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Post by desertrat on Mar 3, 2016 14:05:09 GMT -5
I remember the first book of THE VERLINDEN WAY where he did a Korean F-16, highly improved with scratch build cockpit parts and fully detailed interior stuff. Hell, I was impressed like never before and when I compare this F-16 with todays aftermarket parts (you can skin me alive), the winner is and was the F-16 done by Verlinden. Because of all the craftmanship and knowing how to do it he put in. It is one part to superdetail a kit with strip, rod and gizmos and another to use cast resin parts and PE. I am more impressed by the first that means. It is just like the comparing Sheps B-17 wit and overcrusted one with PE and Resin parts! Frank to true, not to mention Tony Greenland, true masters,
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Post by chris0423 on Mar 3, 2016 14:37:33 GMT -5
I rarely use PE for what it was intended for, I have amassed a huge collection of random sheets that will come in handy 'someday'. What i really like about PE is that I have been able to design and get my own parts etched which is grand in the what-if world, a real sense of achievement and personalisation.
The same goes for resin, in that I have been able to master and recast some parts, again the personalisation satisfaction kicks in here.
All I can say is that thank God I have no CAD skills suitable for 3D printing !
I would really love to be able ro solder PE though, a skill that as passed me by!
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