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Post by dierk on Dec 24, 2016 4:38:23 GMT -5
I'll third that! They'll have hardly said 'oh no, that's the wrong Ausf - we won't bother capturing that one'  |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 24, 2016 9:27:35 GMT -5
Yeah, we for our part did mount guns on anything that could roll, be it wheeled or tracked!  |
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jsteinman
Full Member
Member since: March 2013
Posts: 735
Mar 24, 2013 9:29:10 GMT -5
Mar 24, 2013 9:29:10 GMT -5
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Post by jsteinman on Dec 24, 2016 9:53:04 GMT -5
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Post by panzerjager2 on Dec 24, 2016 10:23:45 GMT -5
Big "D"(Dierk) and all others.....
This is one subject I actually know something about.......no really
Of the three legitimate Panzer Divisions committed, encircled and subsequently destroyed at Stalingrad, (14th, 16th and 24th) from which the Soviets would later draw Panzer hulls to make these conversion...... The Primary Panzer-III was the Early and Late "J" models, in fact according to German production schedules and delivery estimates Very few "L" models were engaged in the battle although some were involved with Manstein's Counteroffensive. The ONE EXCEPTION to this fact would be elements of the 29th Motorized Division. This division was committed late during the Soviet encirclement operations, and very well MAY have had PZ-III "L"'s assigned to it. This division was built up during the late part of 1942 and could have received "L" variants, although "how many", and whether or not any survived the encirclement and destruction is really anyone's guess. Now as to the Stug-III elements, i think YOU'LL find that most of these were Stug-III Ausf's "E", "F" and "F8's". Again there may have been a few of the "G"'s assigned to Operation "Winter Storm" again how many, to what element of the reconstructed 4th Panzer Armee these could have been assigned I wouldn't and couldn't offer a intelligent answer.
NOW the BIG BUT in the room is, there is no concrete evidence one way or the other. The fricking Soviets barely acknowledge that they used "Fascist Fritz's" hulls to supplement the Heroic Soviet Army during the "Great Patriotic War". Let alone have factual records of what variants the did use for this conversion. And the Germans well a LOT of there records for divisions encircled at Stalingrad were lost during battles from Chir Station to the final battles in the Kessel. In fact most of what we do know is an amalgamation from wounded solders and others evacuated during the encirclement, as well as the few survivors memoirs. The point being...... BUILD whatever variant floats your boat....
Live from the Kessel reporting for German Armee this is Axis Alex
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Post by panzerjager2 on Dec 24, 2016 10:34:24 GMT -5
And as a final "postscript" in one of the History Channel, now the Hero's Channel, there was a 3 part episode on the battle(s), I have the DVD series and MAN is it a fan-dang-tastic load of EXCELLENT information. Anyway there is a couple of shots of German Mark III's being used by the Soviets, one of these is a SU76(i) and it does have Ostketten tracks. HOW, WHY and WHERE this came about is again anyone's guess. I personally find it very easy to believe that if the soviets went to ALL the effort to create these SU variants, WHY wouldn't they then add the winter tracks to them, WHEN and or if they came available? ?.
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Post by deafpanzer on Dec 24, 2016 10:45:28 GMT -5
WOW! You are one of our heroes... for saving us money for not buying that kit. Shame on Dragon! I used to buy Dragon kits only pretty much but now I don't unless its an older kit and CHEAP!
Keep up with great work! Merry Christmas and Happy New year my friend!
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Post by dierk on Dec 24, 2016 10:58:06 GMT -5
Interesting, and well-made points PJ! I've seen pics of soviet depots stuffed to the gills with Panzer IIIs and StuGs in various states of repair. Like you I'm convinced pretty much anything they could lay their hands on was 'recycled' in one way or another. Hence my other SU will end up with '43 tracks with solid guide-horns.
Small update: I'm currently sorting out some sag on the DS tracks that came with the kit - old-school, by drilling holes in the hull and sticking wires in them.
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Post by dierk on Dec 24, 2016 11:15:24 GMT -5
WOW! You are one of our heroes... for saving us money for not buying that kit. Shame on Dragon! I used to buy Dragon kits only pretty much but now I don't unless its an older kit and CHEAP! Keep up with great work! Merry Christmas and Happy New year my friend! Thanks for the kind words Andy! I can honestly say I'm stunned by this offering from DML - I kept wondering if I've ended up with some sort of pre-production mock-up, or bad pirate copy. If I can stop somebody from parting with their hard-earned for this pile of junk I consider my job to be a good 'un. Why couldn't the very first build-review sample I ever got have been something more enjoyable that I could've praised until the cows come home? |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 24, 2016 13:17:10 GMT -5
Dierk, I've read somewhere the DS tracks respond positively to shaping in hot water!
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Post by dierk on Dec 25, 2016 8:04:41 GMT -5
Dierk, I've read somewhere the DS tracks respond positively to shaping in hot water! Cheers Tobi - but I did it old-school: drill holes in the lower hull and stick in wires to create sag. Fairly pleased with how it's turned out. Pics soonish. |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 26, 2016 5:27:03 GMT -5
I hope you didn't overdo the sag!  Track with wrong tension is a death sentence to the crew in combat. Volstad's box art shows it nicely done. |
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Post by wbill76 on Dec 26, 2016 23:04:38 GMT -5
Sorry it's turned into such a letdown...Shame that Dragon took such shortcuts.
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Post by dierk on Dec 27, 2016 10:22:37 GMT -5
Sorry it's turned into such a letdown...Shame that Dragon took such shortcuts. Same here Bill - I keep wondering if I've ended up with a pre-production mockup, or a bad pirate copy But apparantly 'they're all like that, sir' If there is a modelling hell, I imagine the 'inhabitants' would have to build this kit OOB for all eternity...  So yes, I did set myself the target of building this OOB - something that shouldn't be a problem with a kit that carries this kind of price-tag...sorry, I just couldn't make myself do it, but I was adamant I wasn't going to spend any extra money on it. So I rolled the tool-boxes in some glitter by adding the fastening brackets and bolts, as well as some hinges made from thick foil and thin rod (yeah, I got a bit blobby with the CA - might clean it, might not)   The boxes are moulded with open backs  and as there is a gap of a few mm between the casemate and the 'guards they are bolted to it is advisable to close the box up with some sheet plastic:  I've already made my feelings about the fuel tanks abundantly clear, now it's time to rip into the mounting brackets: there is only one place for them - the bin! I've decided to use the ones from the Tammy ISU-152 (got some PE for that kit, that replaces them) Top: Tamiya (cleaned of all the mounting lugs), centre: DML, bottom: Masterclub  As if the brackets themselves weren't bad enough, no, Dragon also managed to get the ratio between the brackets and straps wrong: they should be offset to one side, not in line. I hope you all appreciate the sacrifice I've made by wasting glue on something that will also end up in the bin:  There was no way I could make myself use the kit headlight (my bin's getting full). Instead I cut off the mounting pin from the kit part. Unlike my earlier assumption that you need to drill a hole to fit it, it turns out you just glue it to the glacis. Once the glue had set, one of my elf lights got added:  For my other SU build I'm using a metal barrel, so I've had the resin part from the MC conversion going spare - I saved myself the bother of trying to make something presentable from the two-part affair DML provides. I hope you didn't overdo the sag! I hope you approve Tobi:  The massive gap between glacis and mantlet got filled with a CA/baby powder mix  The lifting hooks are actually quite nice. Strangely DML provides some locating guides on the left side of the casemate, but none on the right So just the tanks to sort out now, and the hatch-stops. Thanks for stopping by and ACW. |
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Post by TRM on Dec 27, 2016 10:42:14 GMT -5
I think you are doing a fine job on this Dierk! You're extra efforts will pay off soon! |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 27, 2016 11:42:59 GMT -5
Track sag: You've passed, but barely! Let's call it artificial license. The crew of this ride must be a lazy bunch. In total your model is looking very nice. I think you overcame its shortcomings with skill and commitment. |
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Post by dierk on Dec 27, 2016 13:07:16 GMT -5
Track sag: You've passed, but barely! Let's call it artificial license. The crew of this ride must be a lazy bunch. In total your model is looking very nice. I think you overcame its shortcomings with skill and commitment. A pass is a pass is a pass - that'll do me. Yeah well, all my other licenses are artificial too Maybe the crew was too busy fighting to get the tools out |
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Post by panzerjager2 on Dec 27, 2016 13:09:20 GMT -5
Looking very very nice
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Post by deafpanzer on Dec 27, 2016 13:12:04 GMT -5
I really like what I am seeing... great touch with the headlight!
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Tojo72
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Sept '24 Showcased Model Awarded
Member since: November 2012
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Post by Tojo72 on Dec 27, 2016 14:23:17 GMT -5
Came together real nice.
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Post by Leon on Dec 27, 2016 14:31:37 GMT -5
Your doing a fine job on this thing called a model! |
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Post by wbill76 on Dec 27, 2016 21:26:12 GMT -5
I'm surprised you managed to keep your endurance up for this long without adding something, anything, to it Dierk! |
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adt70hk
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November '24 Showcased Model Awarded
Member since: November 2015
Currently attempting to build something decent!!! ;)
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Post by adt70hk on Dec 28, 2016 2:13:12 GMT -5
Well done for keeping going mate. This is clearly a kit for those with patience!!! |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 28, 2016 3:34:46 GMT -5
I have another little finding regarding different Pz.Kpfw.III versions...
To make matters more complicated for modelers, according to Jentz (Panzertracts 3-3, page one) all Ausf. "J", that were built with the long L60 gun between Dec. '41 and March '42, were officially renamed Ausf. "L" in April 1942! So for the Kg.St. Nachweis from units around Stalingrad this might create some extra confusion as well.
From looking at the pictures I found of the SU-76i in German hands, I think the chassis is a very early Ausf. "J" Tropen. I say this, because, contrary to the color illustration that can be found, to me it seems the domes on the engine deck are orientated crosswise(?), not longitudinal to the driving direction. Is this the correct technical description?
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Post by dierk on Dec 28, 2016 5:19:10 GMT -5
Thanks Todd and PJ! I really like what I am seeing... great touch with the headlight! Elf headlights are just the best, and I use them whenever I can - one of my favourite AM products! Cheers mate! Turned out OK, and yes, anything not specifically for the SU came together real nice - the rest didn't Thanks Leon - I have to say I've really regretted agreeing to building this turd of a kit - soon I'll have to revisit all the heart ache this caused me when I do the German write-up... I'm surprised you managed to keep your endurance up for this long without adding something, anything, to it Dierk! Well, considering the pricetag it should really be possible to do it OOB, and the whole point of me getting this kit sent to me was to do a build-blog. Turns out it is not possible to do it OOB without making sacrifices in accuracy. Cheers Andrew - I have to admit to being stunned that something like this can be released by a company that is considered to be one of the best. File it in the large box of everything that was horrible this year. Now, I have a bone to pick with you lot - especially you Tobi : why hasn't anybody pulled me up about fitting the tracks the wrong way around? answers on a post card... Well then my friends, I've lost patience with this thing and have made an executive decision: I'm not going to bother with the external fuel tanks. I think I've gone well beyond the call of duty on this already and having seen pics of SUs without them that's the way it's going to be. I have another little finding regarding different Pz.Kpfw.III versions... To make matters more complicated for modelers, according to Jentz (Panzertracts 3-3, page one) all Ausf. "J", that were built with the long L60 gun between Dec. '41 and March '42, were officially renamed Ausf. "L" in April 1942! So for the Kg.St. Nachweis from units around Stalingrad this might create some extra confusion as well. From looking at the pictures I found of the SU-76i in German hands, I think the chassis is a very early Ausf. "J" Tropen. I say this, because, contrary to the color illustration that can be found, to me it seems the domes on the engine deck are orientated crosswise(?), not longitudinal to the driving direction. Is this the correct technical description? Confirmation, if any were needed, that my decision to build soviet vehicles was the right one Please post some pics or links Tobi. Paint soon! |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 28, 2016 6:22:43 GMT -5
Now that you're telling I can smell it, too! Tracks are indeed "wrong" way BUT! You can find pictures where the tracks are mounted like this, accidentally or even deliberately like on the Panzerjäger Elefant. In the former case the explanation is quite simple. Consider most soldiers in the Wehrmacht didn't even have a driving license, yet were Panzer experts, and you have your answer. So no sweat... On the Elefant it just proved to be the better way in terms of performance. |
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Post by Tobi on Dec 28, 2016 6:26:58 GMT -5
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Post by panzerjager2 on Dec 28, 2016 7:28:54 GMT -5
Tobi makes a very valid point when reporting the "re-designation" of the Ausf "J"'s magically becoming Ausf "L"'s, as well as the horizontal position of the engine deck hatches .............. HOWEVER
ALL True Ausf "L"'s had the additional 20mm spaced armor plating in the front and on the gun mantlet. Other external details could "include" the deletion of the escape hatch as well as the very distinctive turret schurzen skirts.
Speaking just for me, and me only the insane German habit of redesignating vehicles or weapons "mid" production has lead to the continuous misidentification of this particular vehicle. Similar to the Panther's Ausf "D" then followed by Ausf "A" or crazy uncle Adolf's insistence that military time at all fronts, was the exact same time as in Berlin no matter how many time zones away they were. Let's not forget the Stug 44/MP43/MP44.......
With all this platitude that I have now spew forth.......I say again build what you wish........ Oh and the whole track direction thing PART OF THAT comes from vehicles now located at museums where the Model companies go and do their research from. A fair portion of these static captured and then placed on PERMANENT display vehicles have the tracks in the wrong direction, MOSTLY because nobody knew or cared to correct the issue. Look at one of the biggest error's in 1/35th scale armor Tamiya's Hanomag "C".....how many of us out there in model land actually believed that all Ausf "C"'s had the ambulance variant ONLY water cask between the seats?? PLUS somewhere in my library I have pictures of several different Mark III's in what was then current German service with the track facing the quote "wrong direction" unquote.... I'll dig them up and post so nobody thinks I just pulled that one out of my "you know what"
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moramarth
Full Member
Member since: March 2014
Posts: 455
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Post by moramarth on Dec 28, 2016 18:39:37 GMT -5
Didn't the Italians prefer their tank tracks fitted the wrong way round (to match the gearing - four reverse gears and one forward)? Cheers, M |
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Post by dierk on Dec 29, 2016 4:53:26 GMT -5
Didn't the Italians prefer their tank tracks fitted the wrong way round (to match the gearing - four reverse gears and one forward)? Cheers, M  the old ones are still the best |
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Post by dierk on Dec 30, 2016 13:12:32 GMT -5
Paint has flown, pictures taken, but both internet and laptop are soooooo slow that I haven't the time to give a proper update - time for din-dins. So, just a quicky - you get to marvel at the astoundingly beautiful armoured bolts DML provides for you to shave off and glue to the mantlet:  I'll be Beethoven, Bach, whatever... |
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and as there is a gap of a few mm between the casemate and the 'guards they are bolted to it is advisable to close the box up with some sheet plastic:
the old ones are still the best