It kills me how people complain about every model: this is .000001mm too short, that's too big, the angle is a half degree off. WHO CARES. there is never going to be a perfect model. In the grand scheme of things we are building tiny representations, not exact replicas. Even the Franklin mint doesn't get their collectibles totally correct. Sorry for this rant but I get so sick of reading so much negativity about each model, people think we are geeky enough that we really don't need to expound on trivial minutiae, just shut up and enjoy everyone else work and build your own. Someone will post a model here that they are very proud of and there is always ONE member that has to throw in his two cents worth (AND THATS ALL ITS WORTH) "the nose is sloped .00005 degrees to low". If you are fixing a model that has these issues and explaining why you are making the changes, thats different and I don't mind, but when the first comment you make is how something is out of scale on someone else work, I think that's unnecessary. Isn't this hobby suppose to be about fun? How can it be fun when all you do is nitpick? Do you buy models just to find all the faults? What fun is that? I think we are going to lose people from the hobby if people bash something that isn't our fault. Contact the model company and tell them of all the inaccuracies . We don't want to hear how smart you are, especially people new to the hobby.
I think there is a big difference between what you say and how something is said. There are people around here who try to help you getting to a better result. If you don't want to hear about, then just don't listen.
For me it's clear now and I won't struggle in the future.
"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through!"
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
No you misunderstand what I said. If its criticism to help be a better modeler, that's what everyone wants, me included. I'm talking about people that say "those wheels are too big" that's criticizing the kit, not helping someone get better. I'm talking about people complaining about the kits, not constructive criticism
I sort of agree with you - up to a point. There's inaccuracy and then there's INACCURACY. For me it also depends on how much the kit cost in the first place - the more expensive the kit, the less inclined I am to turn a blind eye. From an expensive kit I expect a high level of accuracy, on the other hand I also really enjoy super-detailing a cheap one.
Post by scratchmod on Apr 14, 2017 11:25:01 GMT -5
I kinda get what you're meaning. These are the same people who buy a new release just to measure parts to ref material just to find those minute flaws....instead of building something that is newly released and having fun with it. Me, I can care less about some inaccuracies. yeah back in the day when I scratchbuilt I used calipers and tried to be accurate, but now I just enjoy building and painting.
Well this is one of my pet peeves. I understand that some receive enjoyment from analysis of kits and their accuracy, but when their quest for perfection extends to those who dare to build inaccurate kits that is where the line should be drawn. I have received comments implying that only an idiot would build an inaccurate kit and that said kit should be boycotted to teach model company that they should do better. I have been told that I wasted my money. I have been bombarded with all the steps necessary to correct the kit and that if you don't do them you are not much of a modeler. So while I understand that some are just trying help they also need to understand their words may lead to a modeler being discouraged.
Post by panzerjager2 on Apr 14, 2017 15:56:39 GMT -5
Well Gents.......here's the FUNNY HA HA from a "self criticizer". In the 3 or so years I've been here I have NEVER seen anyone be an IPMS a$$. NEVER, not once...in fact quite the opposite..... With the exception of my good friend in Germany who's trying to kill me . I have found our members to be open, helpful and very easy to discuss things with. So much so I have fielded several questions via PM. I fell humbled and honored that members reached out and asked for assistance. As I have reached out and received the very same level of kindness and help.
I am sorry you have had that experience. And to Tobi I thought you response was SPOT ON........... Kudos
While I try to make sure all my comments are made in a positive, constructive manner, it doesn't always come out that way... I'm on especially rocky ground as I'm not building at the moment so I'm not posting stuff people could have a go at in return. I remember a cartoon in an early issue of either "Scale Models" or "Military Modelling" where there's a couple of people looking at a diorama of fighting Hoplites, and the owner is saying "What do you mean, the dust under the toenails is the wrong colour for Thermopylae?" For myself it doesn't matter too much how accurate a kit is, by the time I've finished with it, it certainly won't be...
Last Edit: Apr 14, 2017 20:40:41 GMT -5 by moramarth
Post by panzerjager2 on Apr 14, 2017 21:57:34 GMT -5
Just for the sake of clarification, I'm gonna relate this story............ Forgive me if I am repeating myself, however I think the story is relevant to this posting(s).
Many moons ago, when I was actively competing. I was at a IPMS event here in the Northwest. A gentleman had taken the Monogram Models T-Rex kit and created a truly OUTSTANDING presentation. Replacing the eyes with marbles, filled in all the gaps, making the toy that the kit is into what I would characterize as a "world class" Gold Medal build..... Well as a friend of mine and I were conversing and admiring the build with it's creator, one of the true asses of IPMS waddled up complete with pen light, dental mirror and the market cornered on pompous. His holiness surveyed the build, stroked his chins several times. Taking it in mulling it's strengths and weakness. Then after what seemed like forever, this pompous a$$ looked up and without batting an eye nor even understanding his own words.... piped out with....."wrong color"........Well thank god he was around 30 million years ago to help correct the builders stupidity...THANK GOD. Again I have never found one of those here.................. PJ2
I hear you in big way. Awhile ago I was on another board dedicated to big aircraft. There are three or four souls on there that can never resist a chance to dig the claws into a Revell kit. They hunt for inaccuracies with a microscope, and if you double check them they are wrong two out of three times. My favorite is the constant comparison between 109's from the four big players (Hasegawa, Revell, Eduard, and Dragon). If you took them for fact, the Revell is always junk, but others will say nay! But when somebody ask they always say Hasegawa or Eduard. I own several Hasegawa kits, and they are pretty nice, but nowhere in the same class with a Dragon. Eduard's isn't close. Yet when one checks the Revell (at $27) he soon finds it's an excellent starting point.
In 1/48th scale, it's a joke! Go all the way back to the old Fujimi 109, and everyone will tell you the front end is wrong. That's pure B.S.!!! Ask them to prove their thoughts, and you cannot ever expect a reply. They can't. Then they'll tell you the Hasegawa is the best (it's a fine kit, but filled with problems). Yet if one removes the alignment pins they glue together quite well. The new Eduard 109 looks quite well, but have never tried to match one brand to the other. Yet one will tell you to run from one over the other. I laugh at them.
The Spitfire issues are sickening! I've came to loath all Spitfires thanks to BritModeler and Hyperscale. I love Spitfires, but I may never buy another one over this crap shoot.
Awhile back, I had the chance to go over two P51's. One was completely restored inside and out. Tamiya must have scanned it. The other was also restored, but with one exception. It'd never been on the ground. Every panel is OEM, and guess what? It differs from a certain $160 kit in a couple places.(I caught it as I walked up on it). Having never seen the main competitor but once, I can't say they got it right either. Is one dead wrong against the other? I could care less!!! Same for the Spitfire and the 109.
Then after what seemed like forever, this pompous a$$ looked up and without batting an eye nor even understanding his own words.... piped out with....."wrong color"........Well thank god he was around 30 million years ago to help correct the builders stupidity...THANK GOD. Again I have never found one of those here.................. PJ2
Made my day!
"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through!"
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
I do agree there is a group of people around the modeling community who likes to nitpick inaccuracy even show the correct measurement of the 1:1 to 1:35, my question is would other people notice it? when its already done? would they know the inaccuracy? Let's put ourselves in a non-modelers perspective... first thing we will notice in a modeling event or just plain curiosity is "The WOW factor" how these people build it, right? and I know for a fact and by experience, there's always an a$$hole, pain in the neck in short a nutcase with no cure... who will mock other builds, scare the beginners, hard sell his stuff, tell lies to make him the great one!!!
Post by panzerjager2 on Apr 17, 2017 22:37:11 GMT -5
Well I have to add a comment.... A couple of hours ago, Joel asked about tapering on the barrel of my current build... Did I take as a slam...Hell yes. Was it intended as such...well I don't think I'll ever know. The issue is "constructive" criticism, versus being petty. I've always said, "you have to be thick skinned to compete" especially at an IPMS event. Now as that translates to our forum, well I put the pic's of my build out there, yes I CHOSE to not tapper the barrel as it would have "historically" been done. So in the end it's all on me......Do I have to like it....NO. Can I ask legitimate questions about such comments...SURE. HOWEVER for me it comes down to: just because I can ask those questions doesn't mean I have to.
In the end I build for me. I scratch-build..... If asked, I share what little I know. And that little I know tells me NOTHING on this earth in 1/1 scale will translate neatly and so "verlinden "pretty if shrunk down to 1/35th, 1/25th or any other scale...it just won't happen
Certainly what John originally brought up, might be a reflection of the many trolls within the Fakebook realm and not on lets say MSC...or I would like to think this anyway! LOL We have seemed to snowball this conversation a bit into a mixed discussion of individuals that bother us as modelers though. While we have all, at one point or another, have been at the razor tip of some armchair critics remarks, or listen too or have been judged by, unfair criticism by judging officials (or trolls), John's point was to the individuals that feel the need to not simply say "great job" or "why did you do that" and decided to promote one sentence reviews of kits they dislike. Some individuals feel the need to not actually comment positively or negatively about an individuals build or even skills building, but only chime in with a sniper shot of useless information directed at the kit itself and nothing more. This of course leaves the somewhat experienced modeler (or at least forum experienced)shaking their heads for a second asking why the individual is wasting their time making an out of context observation of the kit which undoubtedly ends with the proselytizing of negative information about the kit, rather than recognizing what the individual may or may not be doing with said kit.
Even worse, is when this is done to an inexperienced (young or old) modeler. There is a good possibility that they have not quite learned how to deal with internet trolling as it pertains to the hobby yet. So rather than take it for a comment about how the kit is junk, feel their work is unworthy and begin to question why they even bother.
I do agree with John's rantings and for the most part and feel sorry that anyone has to have things like this happen to them. Typically keep my emotions at bay...might even leave an individual a comment that I respect their opinion about the kit and leave it at that. When in all actuality, their opinion about the kit does not really amount to much in the end....I am building for me, and me alone! As long as I am enjoying it, that is all that matters!
Post by panzerjager2 on Apr 25, 2017 17:01:48 GMT -5
Well, I took a couple of days, and really thought about things like "constructive criticisms" as well as "backhanded compliments"........ Now some out there, AND YOU KNOW WHO THE HECK YOU ARE...are gonna take this negatively... First let me say "tough beans" I am not intending this to be a negative post, more honest feelings about the hobby I have loved my entire life.
Now, despite some of my reply's to posts concerning my builds, I have always believed in life: "you learn more from a loss than you do from a victory...victories are just much more fun". That's from my college football coach.... So here's the catch...... I have always believed that "you reward publicly and discipline privately".Having laid that foundation, IT IS also very fair to say that I am proud of the work I do. I chose a scale that requires about 90 percent scratch-building. I do so for the challenge, THUS I tend to take some things personally. So when a mockingbird, (of which we have many here) pipes up with "hey this or that" it tends to boil my blood. Not because I'm so sanctimonious that I think my models don't stink... No, actually quite the opposite.. But why my blood boils is: These mockingbirds NEVER post any of there work. In my former career we had really two types. A). Those that did, and B). Those that ran their mouths. YES this character flaw is on me. I let these "SO and SO's" burn me up. Here in hobbyland, metaphorically I want to reach thru the fiber optics and rip these peoples heads off. Now, first off VIOLENCE never solves anything...it JUST SOUNDS LIKE SO MUCH DARN FUN. MOREOVER I really want to create a "post indicator" for these types. Something that would accompany their posts like,"I post but don't build". Or "I am mockingbird" Even, "I criticize but don't back it up". YES I know we can never do that....BUT one day when I become emperor of the Universe.....MAYBE.
Now on the other hand.... much like competition of any sort...You lay you entrance fee on the table, you take what they give and go from there. Here on this site I have found some TRUE model Masters. People who's work is amazing. Now when one of these offers a tidbit..I welcome it with open arms. Such help/feedback makes us better. In life as in this hobby I welcome the feedback from all who participate, young old, novice or experienced. For you can learn something from anyone, IF I am willing..... I guess bottom line: Mockingbirds of our site, when you see my work, JUST keep on going. Until you are willing to put "it out there". I could care less what you have to say.
Post by John Everett on Apr 25, 2017 19:32:03 GMT -5
I'm actually going to defend the guys who complain, not just about accuracy but also about the engineering quality of many modern releases.
The guys who complain are perhaps just being silly. But more often than not their basic point has been that an expensive model which was only released a few months ago should have alignment pins which actually align. The knockout marks should be deliberately designed to be hidden.
If we pay a lot of money for something brand new, we shouldn't need to rebuild the transmission just to get it to the model show. I don't mind dumping a lot of extra work into something I bought for $10. But if it cost me $110, the canopy or the turret or the fender dammed well better make a tight fit before the glue is applied. The wingtips of the newest 1/48 Phantom really, really should be at the correct dihedral given what you or I are going to pay for that newest release from a company with an otherwise solid track record.
Some guys complain. But it's worth noting that those who complain about cost vs value tend be the guys who complete most of the projects they begin.
Post by panzerjager2 on Apr 25, 2017 19:49:56 GMT -5
Now that's a "funny HA HA" I never even considered..... See I stopped building production kits oh about the time Dragon showed up on the scene. In fact I can remember being somewhat taken aback when Tamiya released this kit:
And then seeing what the cost of all the aftermarket "do-hickey's" cost....holy sheep dip.... And that was 20 years ago.... I bitched when I bought Bandai's 1/24th King Tiger for 250.00usd, hell that's dam near what you could pay for a 1/35th scale kit nowadays..... So I totally get, when a kit isn't correct. Even more than you might think...since I often use a 1/35th scale kit to "up size" from.......
Post by mrversatile on Apr 25, 2017 20:11:40 GMT -5
I get your point, and I think it has merit. I know the type that you speak of. I also know what John means about value vs expectations. I also think that while building a kit, its shortcomings should be pointed out to help advise the builder or visa versa, so that these engineering mistakes can save others the same frustration. For example: Mistakes in instructions or fitment issues. Inaccuracies of a minor nature are unimportant but like another poster stated: There are INACCURACIES. These are really evident in car kits with totally wrong shapes of front ends that cannot be corrected and just "don't look right" when completed. All the rivet counter stuff though, I couldn't care less about, and like Leon said, "Would anyone even notice most of these when completed."
"Life has a flavor the protected will never know."
Thanks for the comments and the last 4 comments were well said. John Everett: I know there are inaccuracies, but my beef is when you post your work, that's what they hammer on: the engineering aspect. Instead of "good job" or "man, that looks like crap" they talk about the inaccuracies. Maybe there should be a category in this forum of model inaccuracies that people can reference. Broken down in subcategories like, Armor: 1/35th scale: and then listed by manufacturer. I know that would be a huge undertaking but at least we builders could go to it and inform ourselves before we even buy the kit. Wouldn't that be better than shooting someone's model down for something they had nothing to do with? And if someone never reads that thread, they will never know of the problems with said kit before purchase. Thanks, Mrversatile and Panzerjager2. John Everett I love your work, don't think I was bashing you because I wasn't, I hope didn't sound that way
John this is a great conversation...even if it sways from the original topic here and there...LOL I think you touched on what we kind of see with just about people comments/posts just about everywhere today. They are quick to condemn to be either the first to fire back information, albeit factual or not. And similar to clicking on a new post and looking at the pictures only and not actually reading what is being written with in...very much is the case with places like Fakebook...."look at the big headline, it must be true, I will share it"!
As for the "subcategories"...I thought that what reviews were for? LOL Unfortunately that pours gas on the already fueled fire, but if you can find one or two individuals or sites that actually review a kit by showing what is in the box, what is correct and not....not fluffing the kit/manufacturer to ensure more kits are shipped in the future. Within the same though, there are those that approach the review process to rip whatever they can about the kit to either, again, be the first to discover inaccuracies or they cannot actually find the good within anything...ever!
The thing is, no kit will ever be truly accurate. They can come "close" and yes, we can add some bling to dress it up even more if we so desire to spend a little more. I agree, the kits are expensive at time, and, our expectations when spending big money on the kit is often higher than what is produced. Personally I rarely, if ever, pull the trigger and by a "hot off the press" kit for the sole reason the prices are often jacked. Plus I never had the feeling that I "have to have that". If I like it, I know I have too much junk already and that if I wait a little while, I will see it at a show or somewhere after the price drops.
Back on the accuracy issues...yes, manufactures seem to come close and then like John pointed out, toss in an inferior part such as a transmission. This happens for a number of reasons sometimes, but more often than not, this is driven by cultural business practices. Since the majority of big name manufacturers come from the Asian theater, there business model is quite simple...offer the kit, they will buy it, if they don't like something or we made a mistake...oh well. They know two things...People will buy them and if they want to change it, they will build it or buy the AM rather than spend 25K to 200K to make new molds.....just make and sell kits. Business, not personal....but we see things the complete polar opposite. It's "our" money and we want the best for it!
Most of these individuals that spew off about the kits being junk, actually don't build and share too often. They either have been bashed by others in the past and are looking for revenge or they have standards regarding plastic model replicas, that they should be museum pieces when pulled from the box! The past show I attended, I witnessed a number of folks grab golds on OOB builds....no bling, no resin, just inaccurate plastic. The ability to construct the model and finish it with higher levels of skill, outweigh the inaccuracies. Of course this tosses the ball back into the court of those judges that are often mentioned in discussions like this. If someone believes "everything" must be accurate at the kit level and OOB is just not enough, they they proclaim the build junk and score accordingly.
Some of these folks that feel the need to interject their (or whoever they stole the information form) beliefs about a box of plastic as being junk or completely inaccurate honestly have nothing better to do and are looking for attention. Probably more the latter. They spent time working on things, pouring their heart into a build and the having it ripped apart by someone or group. Rather than put the focus into improving their building or finishing, they feel it is much more productive to gather as much information about inaccuracies....with plastic kits and unleash their onslaught mindless rants onto the modelling community.
I have always been happy with if it quacks like a duck... I have never binned a kit because it was an inaccurate interpretation of the real thing. The point for me was always as a pastime. I am not a frustrated tanker or engineer. Do I like to add dodads to kits - you bet, and I hate real rubber tires, so they get replaced too, and interiors - I am a sucker for those, I bet 150 years ago I would be building ships in bottles. But in the end is something is too long, too short, too wide (me) or too narrow - I could care less.
Very, very well said TRM. I would hope that those that criticize the flaws in kits would just build for the joy of it. With me, I just love to watch all the pieces come together bit by bit and become something, and then when it can't get any better, I paint it and OH MAN! and in most cases comes decals and that is just icing on the cake! To look at something that was in tiny pieces all scattered, and then dull colored plastic comes alive in color and just love seeing the finished model. I love looking at finished models, whether it be mine or someone else's. Must be why I love this group so much.