|
|
Post by Teabone on Jun 27, 2013 22:41:31 GMT -5
THIS THREAD IS TO COLLECT ALL INFORMATION FOR THE INTERIOR OF THE TWO VERSIONS OF THE SU 152 IN ONE THREAD.
|
|
pt109
Full Member
Member since: April 2013
Stop staring at me! heheheh
Posts: 491 
|
Post by pt109 on Jul 1, 2013 20:31:25 GMT -5
Bones,
Have you seen the 4BO Green site, it has some great info regarding the early and late versions of the SU152...?
4bogreen.com
Paul
PS Great idea BTW, I wanted to do a conversion to the SU152 using a Trumpeter KV1 but now Bronco has one out so I lost the mojo.
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 1, 2013 23:56:32 GMT -5
Bones, Have you seen the 4BO Green site, it has some great info regarding the early and late versions of the SU152...? 4bogreen.com Paul PS Great idea BTW, I wanted to do a conversion to the SU152 using a Trumpeter KV1 but now Bronco has one out so I lost the mojo.
When building some KV's I used to follow Neil's site rather closely and then got to doing other kits and with a short term memory problem I just forgot about it. I saw his listing of Hussars 152mm ammunition which is perfect for these vehicles so I will order some sets. I have been digging up some info and have decided that there were 3 basic versions of the SU152 type vehicle. 1.) SU 152 Early on the KV hull and chassis. 2.) SU 152 Late on KV Hull and chassis. 3.) ISU 152 on a IS2 hull and chassis.
The difficult part for a builder is finding the basic kit to improve upon to be able to make the first two which appears to be the Bronco kits which have a gun but little else. At this point I am going with the all 3 were laid out on the inside very similar or close to identical. It appears the ISU 152 superstructure MAY have been about 8 inches higher than the SU series but due the the thicker armor the interior volume was about equal which indicates to me the exteriors were all 3 held to a similar set of dimensions with the height of the ISU superstructure.
Tonight I am leaning towards building one of the Bronco kits first as I am feeling more comfortable with what I know about the interior and the things that the Bronco kit bring to the build. I'm not really impressed with the interior detail but that gives me some creative room to work.
I have been in mid build and along comes a new kit much better than what I was working on so I know the losing of mojo and the let down mid stride. There is some danger that Trumpeter could re-tool and do an interior for their SU kit but I don't think its old enough for that move but you never know as fast as the Kit Makers are bringing out new kits and of course someone could come along and point out all my assumptions are wrong about when the kit is close to finished.
Bones |
|
pt109
Full Member
Member since: April 2013
Stop staring at me! heheheh
Posts: 491
|
Post by pt109 on Jul 2, 2013 20:23:02 GMT -5
Bones,
From what I've read in the past, finding ANY info on the interiors, especially the SU 152s is pretty rare, but maybe this has changed recently? I'm sure some good Russian sites may have better info. I think the JSU 152 used a different gun than the SU 152 but maybe I don't recall that one correctly?
Another point is the chassis of the SU 152 was based on the KV 1S not the standard KV 1 hull. The engine deck is the clear giveaway....it slopes down about halfway towards the rear hull and not horizontal as in the usual KV hulls... not sure this would affect the interior layout at all, probably not.
This was a long time interest of mine to convert an existing kit to the SU 152 and SU 122...I think it would be far more interesting to convert a KV 1S hull to the SU 152 versions rather than just buy the existing kits etc.
I have a few pretty good photos of the SU 152 if you're interested...no interior shots though. They came from a Russian magazine with history and photos of the vehicle with a few decent line drawings.
Also, keep in mind, "Early" as opposed to "Late" is only for modelers references...it doesn't appear in Russian nomenclature.
Hope this helps?
Paul
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 2, 2013 23:33:22 GMT -5
Bones, From what I've read in the past, finding ANY info on the interiors, especially the SU 152s is pretty rare, but maybe this has changed recently? I'm sure some good Russian sites may have better info. I think the JSU 152 used a different gun than the SU 152 but maybe I don't recall that one correctly? Another point is the chassis of the SU 152 was based on the KV 1S not the standard KV 1 hull. The engine deck is the clear giveaway....it slopes down about halfway towards the rear hull and not horizontal as in the usual KV hulls... not sure this would affect the interior layout at all, probably not. This was a long time interest of mine to convert an existing kit to the SU 152 and SU 122...I think it would be far more interesting to convert a KV 1S hull to the SU 152 versions rather than just buy the existing kits etc. I have a few pretty good photos of the SU 152 if you're interested...no interior shots though. They came from a Russian magazine with history and photos of the vehicle with a few decent line drawings. Also, keep in mind, "Early" as opposed to "Late" is only for modelers references...it doesn't appear in Russian nomenclature. Hope this helps? Paul
Thank you for your efforts in what is a somewhat mutual goal. Both the SU152 and the ISU152 superstructures are basically identical, the ISU roof appears to be 200mm higher but the internal volume is about the same due to thicker armor on the ISU. The guns for both are the same ML20 152mm howitzer for which there is a kit if you just want to build the Field version.
I have found a number of photo's for the interior many of which are marked ISU152 but being about the same for my level of building they are close enough. I build for the fun and I'm not a rivet counter so often close enough ie really close enough which I see as artistic license.
As for converting or buying the Bronco kit it becomes a question of how much money would I want to spend. I would have to buy the $32 ML20 kit for a gun, Eduard PE kit for misc parts, Hussar projectiles and shell cases, and possibly kit bash another Trumpeter KV kit for a saw and some eye bolts with the cost of a base kit. For me buying the Bronco kit for $45 with the gun already in it makes the most sense and making it the early kit corrects the height of the superstructure sidewalls.
Your scratch skill may be much more developed than mine and building the conversion as a partial scratch build will work for you and I can fully understand wanting to go with what is the most challenging.
The reason we see the early and late terms on the Bronco kits as the change in the road wheels on the KV14 chassis at some point after the SU152 was first developed. If you look at them you will see the difference in the wheels is very noticeable.
Bones        |
|
pt109
Full Member
Member since: April 2013
Stop staring at me! heheheh
Posts: 491
|
Post by pt109 on Jul 4, 2013 11:56:08 GMT -5
Bones,
Those are some very nice photos...thanks for posting them! The photo of the crewman looks like the JSU since the layout is different? (gun sight on the right).
I think I maybe even you can guess some of the call outs in the drawings just looking at them. A little difficult though guessing at other than photos since it's only 1 dimensional.
I think your plan is a good one, getting a well detailed gun would be top priority for me as well...
Paul
|
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 4, 2013 13:23:49 GMT -5
Great job getting the subject started bones. Personally know not a lot on any of this family, so this will help a lot. I know the Boss was looking to make up a decent version of the gun and maybe cast for future subjects.
I have an Imperial version on the shelf with some fruils and other goodies waiting to be built...this might put this on the fast track. LOL
|
|
|
|
Post by 406 Silverado on Jul 4, 2013 13:30:44 GMT -5
Bones
Good idea starting this thread. Other than what I emailed you I don't have much else but will keep an eye out. I'll also keep an eye out for the Bronco kit at the next show.
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 4, 2013 23:04:12 GMT -5
Bones, Those are some very nice photos...thanks for posting them! The photo of the crewman looks like the JSU since the layout is different? (gun sight on the right). I think I maybe even you can guess some of the call outs in the drawings just looking at them. A little difficult though guessing at other than photos since it's only 1 dimensional. I think your plan is a good one, getting a well detailed gun would be top priority for me as well... Paul
One of the descriptions translates as this :The battle compartment of ISU-152 (left side view)1) high-explosive shells in the stowage2) armor-piercing tracer shells in the stowage3) hand grenades F14) the viewing device MK-4 (periscope)5) the flap of the rear hatch6) the flap of the left frontal hatch7) fuel tank8) hatch for loading ammunition9) ramrod10) Extension of gunner’s panoramic sight
We need to agree on something here that keeps coming up and that I that the ONLY real difference between the SU and ISU vehicles is the hull and undercarriage. The superstructures are the same other than the ISU superstructure is about 200mm higher than the SU. There is a crew of 5 men the one you see on the right is the commander, on the left are the gunner and gun sight and driver at the rear is the loader and I have forgotten the title of the fifth man. I would not want to get into any hand to hand combat with the loader, each shell weighed about 88 pounds and he had to load it by himself with no assist. He had to be one tough hombre. 
The periscope that is on the commanders side is the same as the two on the KV2 which functions as a range finder giving him the distance to the target which he must call to the gunner.
I am no expert on these vehicles though I have spent some time now searching for facts on them, if you ave something that disagrees with what I have posted I would like to see it so I don't go along making incorrect statements about them.
Bones
Some notes that I have copiedFor observation from the interior, all roof hatches had
periscopes and there were two gun sights: the telescopic ST-10 (СТ-10) and a
panoramic sight.
There were three internal fuel tanks, two in the crew area and
one in the engine compartment, for a total capacity of 600–615 litres. These
were usually enhanced by four unconnected external fuel tanks, which could hold
an additional 360 litres of fuel. A 24-volt electrical power supply came from a
1 kW GT-4563A generator with a RRA-24 voltage relay regulator unit and four
6STE-128 accumulator batteries with a total capacity of 256 ampere-hours. This
electrical equipment was common for many contemporary Soviet AFVs. The
generator and accumulator batteries fed all other electrical equipment — the
ST-700 electric starter motor, a radio set, an intercom, external and internal
lights, and illumination of gunsight scales.
The crew consisted of 4 or 5 men placed in the superstructure.
Three of the crew were to the left of the gun: driver to the front, then gunner
and last the loader. The vehicle commander and breach operator were to the
right: commander to the front and the breach operator(lockman) behind. When the
crew consisted of 4 men, the loading was carried out by the breach operator.
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 4, 2013 23:15:53 GMT -5
Great job getting the subject started bones. Personally know not a lot on any of this family, so this will help a lot. I know the Boss was looking to make up a decent version of the gun and maybe cast for future subjects. I have an Imperial version on the shelf with some fruils and other goodies waiting to be built...this might put this on the fast track. LOL
It is great to be able to gather the information about a subject before starting a build. There are two guns for this vehicle already, I'm not sure about the quality but it is made by Trumpeter and they usually do a fair job, The other comes with the Bronco SU kits and Bronco does a pretty fair job with their kits so I'm not sure how well another ML20 gun would sell. The Gun that is missing and no one has made either a field gun or mounted one is the 1938 M 10 152mm which is what is in the KV2 and it would be nice to have one of those. The problem there is I have not seen even any pictures of one that could be used to make one. Its possible that Neil Stokes might have something on one.
Bones
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 4, 2013 23:51:23 GMT -5
Bones Good idea starting this thread. Other than what I emailed you I don't have much else but will keep an eye out. I'll also keep an eye out for the Bronco kit at the next show.
It appears that it is slowly bringing out some interesting items on the SU & ISU 152's that will help to make some interior improvements even though they will be somewhat difficult to see without handling the model. I have ordered one of the Bronco SU152 early kits and Hussar projectiles and shells. I will have to round up the Eduard PE for those plastic grills. My supplier tells me that Hussar is a little slow on the shells so I might be awhile getting mine before the build will be a go. Miniart has a good set of projectiles and shells also so I will look around for a set of those.
Bones
|
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 5, 2013 0:47:03 GMT -5
Keeping my eyes open for info regarding this then...never know what we come across from time to time. Let me know if I get off track. Digging:  from the book "The KVs of Leningrad" by Maksim Kolomiets    152 mm BR-2 Model 1935  isu 152  If nothing else they are some interesting pics. Will send a shout out tomorrow to a couple or Russian friends, maybe some info there. |
|
pt109
Full Member
Member since: April 2013
Stop staring at me! heheheh
Posts: 491
|
Post by pt109 on Jul 5, 2013 11:43:44 GMT -5
More nice photos Mr T....thanks for posting!
I think my interest is growing but not sure I want to commit to such a detailed project right now.
That last photo is really great, SU 152...nice to see such interest.
Paul
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 5, 2013 13:14:52 GMT -5
Keeping my eyes open for info regarding this then...never know what we come across from time to time. Let me know if I get off track. isu 152 If nothing else they are some interesting pics. Will send a shout out tomorrow to a couple or Russian friends, maybe some info there.
Nice finds and excellent quality pictures. I have never seen this one and it is helpful. I will post a couple of follow ups tonight. I can see that there are still a number of factors that are yet to be understood along with some mysteries unsolved. It may be that when I do my build it will still be partially artistic license. While the KV2 picture is informative it would be nice to know where the author got it as it shows the correct number of propellent charges the placement of the projectiles is not shown, could be hidden behind the propellent.
Bones |
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 5, 2013 19:54:04 GMT -5
I can see that we are still missing some facts on how these vehicles were built or were modifications widely used. If Neil gets his next book on the SU vehicles published we would have a much better idea of what went on inside these vehicles. The "Fig.jpg's" do not seem to be that last word on how they were built and with out a view from the top we just don't now. Until my kit arrives I will do some more searching and hoping for the best.
Bones
From the attached photo's we can see some of the conflicts or mysteries that face us.
The above photo is labeled SU 152 and the below has ISU 152 in Russian but it still remains unclear how they were layed out.
|
|
|
|
Post by bbd468 on Jul 5, 2013 20:32:33 GMT -5
WOW, great pics and great thread Bones!
The above photo is labeled SU 152 and the below has ISU 152 in Russian but it still remains unclear how they were layed out.Im pretty sure that Commander is Tony Lee when he was a young lad!   |
|
|
|
Post by tonylee-Rest In Peace on Jul 6, 2013 8:23:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by wbill76 on Jul 6, 2013 20:07:04 GMT -5
That would explain the SPG obsession! |
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 6, 2013 23:29:23 GMT -5
Thought I would toss this up as I ran across it tonight. Cool video on an SU 152 getting fired up before a restoration. There is a clear shot of the sights just after 6 minutes and the cradle for the breech around 7 minutes!
What a machine!! Love the last minute or so as it show a great parking job. Just before, notice the damage to the asphalt from turning!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 6, 2013 23:47:24 GMT -5
Mr. T
What I found interesting was the fact that it had set there since the end of the Great Patriotic War and no one removed any more than they had; here it would have only been a grease spot since the rest would have been hauled away like Johnny Cashes Cadillac, piece by piece for scrap. It did start rather easy for all those years but being diesel its not surprising expressly since they used fresh fuel from a can. Watching these Russians and Ukrainians dig these old trophys from swamps and rivers shows a lot of effort to save history, these guys were just lucky to drive up and load it without getting wet.
Be nice to see it all restored.
Bones
|
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 7, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 7, 2013 22:41:19 GMT -5
Mr. T
Your pretty gifted on finding those Russian sites, those links had quiet a bit of written data on both series of vehicles. Unless we find a cutaway like the one for the KV2 I believe I have enough to build an SU 152 under my artistic license style. To build a precision scale model of the vehicle is not within my skill level and it would require a good top view plan to really accomplish it. Thanks for your help and I think we should keep our eyes out for any more new info as we surf around.
Bones
|
|
|
|
Post by wbill76 on Jul 8, 2013 20:00:52 GMT -5
Mr. T
Your pretty gifted on finding those Russian sites, those links had quiet a bit of written data on both series of vehicles. Unless we find a cutaway like the one for the KV2 I believe I have enough to build an SU 152 under my artistic license style. To build a precision scale model of the vehicle is not within my skill level and it would require a good top view plan to really accomplish it. Thanks for your help and I think we should keep our eyes out for any more new info as we surf around.
Bones
Now you know what the "R" in T's handle stands for...it's Russkie! |
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 8, 2013 22:20:47 GMT -5
Mr. T
Your pretty gifted on finding those Russian sites, those links had quiet a bit of written data on both series of vehicles. Unless we find a cutaway like the one for the KV2 I believe I have enough to build an SU 152 under my artistic license style. To build a precision scale model of the vehicle is not within my skill level and it would require a good top view plan to really accomplish it. Thanks for your help and I think we should keep our eyes out for any more new info as we surf around.
Bones
Now you know what the "R" in T's handle stands for...it's Russkie!
I though that some where you posted that "the boss" was interested in mastering a ML 20 gun of which there are at least two being produced, I don't know who the boss is but on the below thread I posted a number of photo's for the 1938 M 10 Howitzer which is the same gun, without the carriage, that is in the KV2 for which no one is making a kit for. The scale would be easy to establish since the barrel length from the end recuperator to the end of the barrel is known and the photo's wheels are Zis 5 wheels which we should know the size of.
If he was interested in mastering it there would be a market for both on the carriage and off to use on a KV2 interior build.
Bones modelerssocialclub.proboards.com/thread/2387/bronco-models-september-1943-produc |
|
|
|
Post by wbill76 on Jul 9, 2013 20:05:47 GMT -5
Bones, The 'boss' is Rob aka Scratchmod. I believe he was the one looking for info on the ML 20. |
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 9, 2013 20:12:29 GMT -5
Hey fellas! Will have to see if the Boss (Rob) can master ML20 !!! WOuld be nice!! Spent some time trolling again! Yeah…spending entirely way to much time on this infectious subject…LOL!!! Found a few more interesting sites and pics. Tossing this up as I think from what I read this is the drivers view port on the KV-2. Interesting because there was a picture of the interior attached below. I know if there is one picture of the inside, there must be more out there…    This was just a cool shot and figured it would slide in here nicely!  I think I posted this one but this is a bit better quality of a pic…  Nice shot here…still not actually inside a piece of armor but getting close…  Going off track here but some sweet KV-1 interior shots!!! KV-1 InteriorA restoration of a river drowned KV-1. I built the turret resting in the lot for fun not too long ago. Detail shots of the lower hul are great and might come in handy at some point. Restoration of a KV-1 |
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 9, 2013 23:00:07 GMT -5
Hey fellas! Will have to see if the Boss (Rob) can master ML20 !!! WOuld be nice!! Spent some time trolling again! Yeah…spending entirely way to much time on this infectious subject…LOL!!! Found a few more interesting sites and pics. Tossing this up as I think from what I read this is the drivers view port on the KV-2. Interesting because there was a picture of the interior attached below. I know if there is one picture of the inside, there must be more out there… This was just a cool shot and figured it would slide in here nicely!
You have been coming up with a lot of good information which I for one really appreciate, I think we have learned more here about KV2's and SU 152's than anyone has ever seen in one place since the end of the great patriotic war. Neil Stokes, who is as knowledgeable as anyone on KV's and IS vehicles had never seen the inside view provided by the German cutaway picture that was posted here.
I really like the above picture as it is the best prespective on the huge size of the KV series vehicles.
There is no need for an ML 20 gun used in the SU152 what is needed is the 1938 M-10 152mm for the KV2 series if we are going to be doing and KV2 interiors.
Bones |
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 10, 2013 16:58:53 GMT -5
Got it...M-10 not ML 20 So I should stop looking at ISU 152's then, ey? LOL!! Well after this! Snipit from inside one:  This is from this just under 3 minute video. If anyone is planning a ISU with an interior...intact or otherwise...umm...  , towards the end there is a good panning of the interior and it's in decent shape if you ask me. OK, will resume the KV..er...KB..err....HT-2 tank hunt!!  |
|
|
|
Post by Teabone on Jul 10, 2013 19:08:55 GMT -5
Got it...M-10 not ML 20 So I should stop looking at ISU 152's then, ey? LOL!! Well after this! Snipit from inside one:
You sure have the knack for coming up with the good stuff, thank you for your efforts. I think I have confused you on what I was looking for. I have a Bronco SU152 kit on order and want to do an interior for it. I have long been interested in the KV2 vehicle and would likes to build another one now that we have the German cutaway that tells us what the interior looks like. My problem is That I lack the necessary skills to make the M-10 howitzer that would be needed for an interior for it I know everything else I need to know for the KV2 build. I just keep hopeing someone would jump in an make the 1938 M-10 available at 1/35 scale.
For my SU152 build I needed to know what the interior looked like so I could build an interior for it when I build that kit. That video certainly helps to that end and I feel, to some degree, that eventually we will come across pictures that clearly show what that interior looked like.
Thank you again for you efforts in shedding light on what the inside of the SU152 looked like.
Bones
|
|
|
|
Post by TRM on Jul 10, 2013 21:28:54 GMT -5
|
|
, towards the end there is a good panning of the interior and it's in decent shape if you ask me.
WIll keep an eye open for just the gun, more specifically drawings of said gun. Should not be difficult to scale down and fabricate with a little patience!
