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Post by Tobi on Dec 5, 2013 15:30:12 GMT -5
Dupes, I like the result you achieved with respraying the Wirbelwind. Dunkelgelb is a color as difficult to tell as OD or Russian Green, especially as it changed it's shade throughout the war. You could read a little about it here. This is an article I wrote for Panzer-Modell.de some time ago, translated by Dierk for MSC. The first Dunkelgelb introduced was a mustard yellow, hence the greenish tone and was derived from an even darker, brownish pre-war Dunkelgelb. AK's color may look exaggerated at first glance, but there is really no telling of the "true" tone, especially as this was called "Dunkelgelb acc. to sample". Plants were given these samples and then had to mix the color by themselves! One can imagine how many variations must have existed. It was nowhere that registered and normed as believed by the majority of people. I have a color book on German WWII uniforms. In it are many pictures of original helmets, over-sprayed by their former owners with differing sand colors for better camouflage. I can assure you that more than once the color is looking really close to the AK tone. I have the Vallejo primer and it's very similar, also very green. Too green for my liking, especially when I take into account the scale effect, but I wouldn't tend to call the color "wrong". I read a lot about the topic and spent a lot of time on it, only finding I didn't get any smarter. Those who claim to know the correct shade of Dunkelgelb should be deemed suspicious IMHO! Cheers, Tobi |
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losboz
Full Member
Member since: September 2013
Posts: 322 
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Post by losboz on Dec 5, 2013 15:38:54 GMT -5
Hi Dupes
Vallejo Dunkelgelb has a really green tint to it. Their modulation set is the same. I started back in the hobby using just Vallejo and if I look in the cabinet now all the Dunkelgelb finished stuff is far too green !
You can thin Vallejo with water no problem to airbrush but Tamiya looks better and sprays way better so you made the right move. That last pic looks a far better rep of the real colour IMO
Los
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Post by deafpanzer on Dec 5, 2013 15:59:17 GMT -5
Looking DAMN great! Alcohol thinner? Really?!?!?! Will try that when I spray my Chally next...
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Post by fightnjoe on Dec 5, 2013 16:10:52 GMT -5
dupes it looks fantastic to this non german model builder. i would imagine with weathering and washes it will change shade and look even better. god i hope i can learn how to get a decent paint job from all of you.
joe
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 18:34:39 GMT -5
Dupes, I like the result you achieved with respraying the Wirbelwind. Dunkelgelb is a color as difficult to tell as OD or Russian Green, especially as it changed it's shade throughout the war. You could read a little about it here. This is an article I wrote for Panzer-Modell.de some time ago, translated by Dierk for MSC. The first Dunkelgelb introduced was a mustard yellow, hence the greenish tone and was derived from an even darker, brownish pre-war Dunkelgelb. AK's color may look exaggerated at first glance, but there is really no telling of the "true" tone, especially as this was called "Dunkelgelb acc. to sample". Plants were given these samples and then had to mix the color by themselves! One can imagine how many variations must have existed. It was nowhere that registered and normed as believed by the majority of people. I have a color book on German WWII uniforms. In it are many pictures of original helmets, over-sprayed by their former owners with differing sand colors for better camouflage. I can assure you that more than once the color is looking really close to the AK tone. I have the Vallejo primer and it's very similar, also very green. Too green for my liking, especially when I take into account the scale effect, but I wouldn't tend to call the color "wrong". I read a lot about the topic and spent a lot of time on it, only finding I didn't get any smarter. Those who claim to know the correct shade of Dunkelgelb should be deemed suspicious IMHO! Cheers, Tobi Tobi - that's a great article! Definitely worth taking a look at for anyone who hasn't already. I'm certainly no expert as to what dunkelgelb should look like from any sort of "official" standpoint - I think a lot of references photos definitely have a green component to them. I just think that the AK primer is TOO green to use on it's own (and definitely looks better now). What book is it you have on German WWII uniforms? That's one area my reference library is lacking. |
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 18:36:47 GMT -5
Hi Dupes Vallejo Dunkelgelb has a really green tint to it. Their modulation set is the same. I started back in the hobby using just Vallejo and if I look in the cabinet now all the Dunkelgelb finished stuff is far too green ! You can thin Vallejo with water no problem to airbrush but Tamiya looks better and sprays way better so you made the right move. That last pic looks a far better rep of the real colour IMO Los Los - I think I'm partially influenced in my perception of dunkelgelb BECAUSE I like to use Tamiya paint so much - theirs is distinctly less green than a lot of other manufacturers. Take a look at Model Master's acrylic color...I think it actually IS green, not a green tint! |
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Post by bbd468 on Dec 5, 2013 18:39:46 GMT -5
Gary - good call on the alcohol thinner! I wouldn't have guessed that the AK stuff responds as well to it as Tamiya.  I actually ended up thinning it a bit more - probably to 60/40 as it kept separating in the brush - and I think next time I would probably start at 50/50 to see how well it handles. Holy cow Dupes!!!  That is camo looks amazing bro! You defo got tha handle on that AK stuff already. Lookin forward to tha brown.  What psi did ya shoot with and what AB do you use Dupes? |
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 18:40:29 GMT -5
Dicky - thanks man! I did realize, however, that the primer coat (or maybe the AK dunkel overspray) wasn't quite as smooth as I would have liked...bit of a grainy finish in a couple of places.
Andy - totally! I couldn't believe that alcohol worked so well either, especially since the "recommended" thinners on the bottle are AK's proprietary stuff (of course) or tap water.
Joe - you can totally paint a good camo scheme! The real trick is getting your paint thin enough to spray without leaving a bunch of spatter everywhere. When I freehand Tamiya acrylics, I'm only using 20% paint, 80% alcohol. Just dial down the pressure to ~15psi and pay attention to how much paint you're throwing to prevent the dreaded spidering.
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 18:45:27 GMT -5
Holy cow Dupes!!! That is camo looks amazing bro! You defo got tha handle on that AK stuff already. Lookin forward to tha brown. What psi did ya shoot with and what AB do you use Dupes? Thanks Gary! Owed in part to you...I seriously didn't think the AK stuff would work with alcohol (even though I use it every time I spray Tamiya). PSI - 14-15ish. Airbrush - my trusty Peak C-5 from Bear Air. It's an Iwata knock-off for about a 3rd of the price. Link here (to the "new" model anyway...looks identical to me?). www.bearair.com/PEAK-C-51-Gravity-Feed-Airbrush/productinfo/100363/A couple of years ago I bought a badass Grex trigger gun...and went back to the Peak not long after. Not that the Grex is bad (at all), but this thing is a machine. I've used it so much I know exactly how it sprays and I can clean it in about 2 minutes. |
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Post by bbd468 on Dec 5, 2013 19:15:44 GMT -5
Holy cow Dupes!!! That is camo looks amazing bro! You defo got tha handle on that AK stuff already. Lookin forward to tha brown. What psi did ya shoot with and what AB do you use Dupes? Thanks Gary! Owed in part to you...I seriously didn't think the AK stuff would work with alcohol (even though I use it every time I spray Tamiya). PSI - 14-15ish. Airbrush - my trusty Peak C-5 from Bear Air. It's an Iwata knock-off for about a 3rd of the price. Link here (to the "new" model anyway...looks identical to me?). www.bearair.com/PEAK-C-51-Gravity-Feed-Airbrush/productinfo/100363/A couple of years ago I bought a badass Grex trigger gun...and went back to the Peak not long after. Not that the Grex is bad (at all), but this thing is a machine. I've used it so much I know exactly how it sprays and I can clean it in about 2 minutes. Thanks for tha info & link Dupes, i like that Peak AB alot. Whats weird is the Alcohol doesnt work with the Lifecolor and LC is a tricky paint for me as well. Its different than AK and Tamiya. Oh well......I tell ya how much i love Tamiya! |
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 19:57:25 GMT -5
Wow, what a difference a different color makes. Try as I might, couldn't get this one to do what I wanted. Started at 60/40 paint to thinner, ended up going all the way down to 30/70 to try to get it to spray properly - no go. The grains of pigment were so inconsistently sized it was like painting with a garden sprinkler. Tried cranking the PSI up to 20-25 to help blow them out - no luck. I should take some pics of my test newspaper...it's ridiculous. What should have been an easy 15 minute blotch-painting session turned into over an hour (and a full A7X album) of marathon airbrushery. Think I melted my compressor while I was at it. So anyhoo, the final result is here:  Not as complex as I wanted to make it, but I wasn't going to ruin an entire build with non-behaving paint. |
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Post by dupes on Dec 5, 2013 19:58:49 GMT -5
The brown looks a LOT darker in that pic than in person. I may yet go back and lighten it up a bit (with Tamiya paint!) to mesh better with that faded-green look on the first camo color.
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AndyArgent.
Senior Member
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Andy Bodge Argent - Aug 2013 MoM Winner
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Nov 17, 2011 17:09:43 GMT -5
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Post by AndyArgent. on Dec 5, 2013 20:07:01 GMT -5
Nice job Dupes
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Post by wbill76 on Dec 5, 2013 21:00:53 GMT -5
Nice paint progress despite the issues with the red-brown side of things Dupes, I think you chose the right path in not trying to force more of it into the pattern given the struggles. Looks good from here!
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Post by Tobi on Dec 6, 2013 2:03:36 GMT -5
I have a color book on German WWII uniforms. In it are many pictures of original helmets, over-sprayed by their former owners with differing sand colors for better camouflage. I can assure you that more than once the color is looking really close to the AK tone. Cheers, Tobi Tobi - that's a great article! Definitely worth taking a look at for anyone who hasn't already. I'm certainly no expert as to what dunkelgelb should look like from any sort of "official" standpoint - I think a lot of references photos definitely have a green component to them. I just think that the AK primer is TOO green to use on it's own (and definitely looks better now). What book is it you have on German WWII uniforms? That's one area my reference library is lacking. Dupes - it's an orignal French publication, but an English version is available here at the Amazons: www.amazon.com/German-Soldiers-World-War-Two/dp/2915239355/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386312061&sr=8-1&keywords=uniforms+jean+de+lagardeTo me it's the perfect access to this topic. I'd say the Pareto principle applies fully. On 20% of the pages necessary to cover the full complexity, it has 80% of what there is to know about German uniforms in it, and at a considerable price. Traders and collectors have brought their stuff together, everything is photographed in full color on models, no sketches! Excellent depiction of colors and sewing patterns. Most of it is Wehrmacht and SS, but also a little Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Standard, winter and tropic clothing. Webbing, equipment and weapons. The most common camouflage prints. Personal clothing made by company tailors from Zeltbahn splinter fabrics. Categorized after years from '39-'45. From this starting point you can easily dive into details. I for example bought two further books on SS camo uniforms and a collector's guide on Wehrmacht clothing and gear. Both have been much more expensive, only for covering another 15%! Cheers, Tobi |
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Post by dupes on Dec 6, 2013 8:38:48 GMT -5
Ooooooh...that book looks GREAT! Added it to my Amazon wishlist, maybe I'll get lucky for Christmas!  |
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Nov 28, 2024 2:15:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 9:01:25 GMT -5
nice work Dupes like the colours
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Post by deafpanzer on Dec 6, 2013 9:37:00 GMT -5
Dupes, If i remember properly, and i may have to revisit my Pz.IV F2G build to be sure, but im thinkin i udes 91% Iso Alcohol with a bit of thr AK thinner to get better results. Ill double check and see, but i did have to add to the AK paint & Thinner to get the most out of it i could. There thinner just didnt perform like i thought it should. Gary & Dupes, I am going to spray Vallejo paint on my Chally II today. I checked my medicine cabinet last night and I only have 70% Iso Alcohol. I don't think it will work as it may be too strong? If so, I guess I will shop at drug store nearby before it starts to snow again... Dupes- Your little plane hater machine looks damn great already by the way! |
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bbrowniii
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If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.
Posts: 1,239
Mar 25, 2012 22:08:04 GMT -5
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Post by bbrowniii on Dec 6, 2013 10:02:15 GMT -5
Gary & Dupes, I am going to spray Vallejo paint on my Chally II today. I checked my medicine cabinet last night and I only have 70% Iso Alcohol. I don't think it will work as it may be too strong? If so, I guess I will shop at drug store nearby before it starts to snow again... Dupes- Your little plane hater machine looks damn great already by the way! Hey Andy I've used the 70% to thin before. I'm not sure how it works relative to the 91%, but I've had success. You might have to tweak the ratios a little to get the right one, but I think you can give it a shot and practice on some scrap to see how it works. |
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bbrowniii
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If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.
Posts: 1,239
Mar 25, 2012 22:08:04 GMT -5
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Post by bbrowniii on Dec 6, 2013 10:03:52 GMT -5
Dupes
Paint looks great. Sorry to hear about the trouble with the AK stuff. That is one of the reasons I cling so desperately to my Tamiya colors - I feel like I've learned them well enough to know what to expect. The AK stuff seems to be a little more... random.
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Post by bbd468 on Dec 6, 2013 10:26:01 GMT -5
Dupes, despite the troubles with the brown this time, ya managed an awful sweet pattern out of it! That is so strange the Paint is that inconsistent........That sux dude!  Have you ever had to replace parts on the Peak AB? If so, were the parts easily available and replaced? I really like that AB and have Bookmarked that pg of the Link. I absolutely love my Iwatas, but it would be nice to have a great - affordable AB to lift the burden on my others.....especially my Eclipse. Its like my right arm for all that is paint. |
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Post by dupes on Dec 6, 2013 12:40:59 GMT -5
Smudge - thanks man!
Andy - I actually use 70%, not 91%. Hasn't ever caused me any issues. Should probably pick up a jug of 91 and see how it works out.
Boyd - believe me, I'm with you. I just soooo don't want my stuff to all look exactly the same I'm dying for some differing colors...and the damn colorblind thing makes it awfully hard to eyeball my own mixes.
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Post by dupes on Dec 6, 2013 12:49:04 GMT -5
Dupes, despite the troubles with the brown this time, ya managed an awful sweet pattern out of it! That is so strange the Paint is that inconsistent........That sux dude! You're telling me. As I was test firing, I seriously could not get a 3" long fine line of spray because the paint wouldn't leave my brush (complete opposite of their green). I even dumped the cup, did a complete douching just to make sure it wasn't the brush. No luck. Have you ever had to replace parts on the Peak AB? If so, were the parts easily available and replaced? I really like that AB and have Bookmarked that pg of the Link. Yes to both - I've replaced needles and nozzles (that second part was totally my fault). Parts are always available at bearair. I even send it back to them every couple of years - for 10 or 15 bucks (can't remember quite how much) they give it a complete cleanout and inspection of all parts and then send it back to you. Pretty awesome! |
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Post by bbd468 on Dec 6, 2013 13:08:30 GMT -5
I tell ya what Dupes, thats pretty damn awesome supply and service right there. I reckon you just earned commission on my next AB purchase....later next year of course. Nevertheless, Bearair will owe you some credit! |
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Post by dupes on Dec 6, 2013 13:57:15 GMT -5
Hahaha...I'll be sure to tell them that next time I go there. Just so happens that they're about 5 minutes away from my brother in law's place (unbeknownst to me until a couple of months ago)!
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Post by Tobi on Dec 6, 2013 15:40:25 GMT -5
Considering the problems you had with the brown it turned out fine Dupes.
That's the problem with the pigments from which the paints are made. Just because one sprays good it's no guarantee that all of the same brand behave like that.
A word on the alcohol. I read somewhere one should always prefer the one with the highest percentage, that is 91% I believe. I really can't tell as I'm only using the Mr. Color thinner with the dark blue label (for laquers) or tap water. What I do know is, the longer the alcohol is stored, the more it is loosing it's percentage, as it accumulates water over the time.
Cheers,
Tobi
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Post by dupes on Dec 6, 2013 17:30:21 GMT -5
Alvin - did not know that about alcohol. Shoot, I've been pulling off of the same bottle for years. Imagine I'm considerably less than 70% at this point! ....apparently there's people that have loaded AB's and sprayed perfectly EVERY single time - I 'ATE 'EM! Yeah, and that guy is me EVERY TIME I SPRAY TAMIYA!!!  |
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Post by dupes on Dec 7, 2013 17:09:46 GMT -5
The first weekend update (with Dennis Miller) - got the decals on and overcoated with some Vallejo satin. The slight difference in sheen should go away with the upcoming layers of weathering. Got the rest of the roadwheels and return rollers painted up with the circle template. Had a P-47 out that I needed to rust up the exhausts a bit on so I decided to tackle this one at the same time. Took about 8 or 9 layers of Rustall to get it where it is now.  Also getting ready to work on all of the turret interior stuff - dry fitting the guns into the mounts.  |
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Post by wbill76 on Dec 7, 2013 18:42:47 GMT -5
Nice progress Dupes.
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bbrowniii
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Mar 25, 2012 22:08:04 GMT -5
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Post by bbrowniii on Dec 7, 2013 22:31:44 GMT -5
Mmmmmmm.... that looks great!
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